Great Ships

[Arthur_Vandelay]

From The Two Towers, "Treebeard"

"I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships, I never can tell."

Which "Great Ships"? Numenorean vessels? They would have ceased to arrive in Middle-earth late in the Second Age; yet the Istari appear about 1000 years into the Third Age. Or vessels from out of the West? Certainly the Istari could only have come to Middle-earth out of the far West via ships of some kind. If they came with (or on) the "Great Ships" to which Treebeard refers, would that have been the sole purpose of these Ships (i.e. to transport Wizards)? Do Tolkien's writings shed any light on this?

 

[Confusticated]

I can see an ent saying "They appeared first after the Great Ships came..." even if he was refering to the Numenorean ships from over 1,000 years ago. He did say after but does this have to mean shortly after? And, shortly according to whose perception of time?

Unfinished Tales tells us that Gandalf and Saruman came to the Northwest of Middle-earth, Gandalf after Saruman, and that Cirdan was the only one who knew about the Istari for some time, having witnessed their landings. I doubt Treebeard would have known of these ships.

In the Istari section of UT Christopher mentions some much later notes that he says are difficult to make out. These end up published later in HoME 12. They also show that Gandalf landed at the Havens. In either place I don't see any reason to think the ships of the Istari were known to many, let alone someone over in Fangorn.

But I have to add. The Istari ship situation is puzzling. Surely they would need a crew? But, they can't have had one, so I guess maybe these weren't your typical ships, and no reason to be Great Ships.

I say that can not have had a crew because I do not think any elves left Aman after it was removed from the world. In an essay where Tolkien puts down his thoughts on the arival of Glorfindel in Middle-earth, it is made clear that this Elf being granted permission to leave the Blessed Realm after its removal from the Circles of the World was an exception (IF he arived after the Akallabeth that is, which is unlikely!), and even more, that it was according to God that no embodied person could leave Aman after its removal. I would think that Istari in bodily form would also be included here. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading other things that made it clear Elves did not come to Middle-earth aftering the Fall of Numenor, but I cannot prove it right now. So to me, their vessels are a mystery, and were likely not actual normal ships.

 

[Gothmog]

I say that can not have had a crew because I do not think any elves left Aman after it was removed from the world. In an essay where Tolkien puts down his thoughts on the arival of Glorfindel in Middle-earth, it is made clear that this Elf being granted permission to leave the Blessed Realm after its removal from the Circles of the World was an exception (IF he arived after the Akallabeth that is, which is unlikely!), and even more, that it was according to God that no embodied person could leave Aman after its removal. I would think that Istari in bodily form would also be included here. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading other things that made it clear Elves did not come to Middle-earth aftering the Fall of Numenor, but I cannot prove it right now. So to me, their vessels are a mystery, and were likely not actual normal ships.

So why is it so difficult for there to be "Great Ships"? And why would a crew for such ships be hard to find?

The Istari were Maia embodied by special permission to carry out a task in Middle-earth that needed more than just the powers of Elves and Men. As they had been embodied the Istari needed some form of transport from Valinor to Middle-earth. No doubt the Teleri of the Blessed Realm could provide the ships and if not the Valar certainly could. As for crew, it is possible that the Teleri performed the same task in the same way as they did in the War of Wrath. There they crewed the ships but did not set foot in Middle-earth. But even if no Elves other than Glorfindel left Valinor how many Maiar are there to be found in the Blessed Realm and how many would be required to crew these ships?

 

[Confusticated]

So why is it so difficult for there to be "Great Ships"?

As I said, I just see no reason for the Istari ships to have been great ships.

And why would a crew for such ships be hard to find?

It's not just a matter of believing that no elves reached Middle-earth from Aman after it was removed, but also what Tolkien says when considering Glorfindel's arival. People could not leave Aman. So this would mean a mariners from Aman would have needed a special permission. The mission of the Istari is so important they could probably get that, but it is never mentioned.

There is also the fact I don't remember exactly what all I read to give the idea no Elves reached MIddle-earth from Aman after the Fall of Numenor. It may have been said no Elves left Aman for all I remember.

...how many Maiar are there to be found in the Blessed Realm and how many would be required to crew these ships?

The same reasoning would apply to Maiar. I suppose it might take less Maiar than elves, but I don't see how that matters.

What is the proof the Istari were bound to old man form before leaving Valinor?

 

[Gothmog]

Ok I have looked for some evidence about how the Istari came to ME and in what form. I have so far found this.

From The Silmarillion: The Rings of Power and the Third Age

Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Círdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. . In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand. Long they journeyed far and wide among Elves and Men, and held converse also with beasts and with birds; and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman.

From Unfinished Tales: Part Four: II The Istari

Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

From Appendix B: The Lord of the Rings

When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves of Men by force and fear.
They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few, but used such names as were given to them. The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar Curunír, 'the Man of Skill', and Mithrandir, 'the Grey Pilgrim', but by Men in the North Saruman and Gandalf. Curunír journeyed often into the East, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West, and never made for himself any lasting abode.
Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar; Gil-galad, Galadriel and Círdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Círdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

So it appears that Círdan saw them come over the sea and land on the western shores at the Grey Havens and that when he met them they were already clothed in real bodies of men.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Letters #325
The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman – the undying lands of Valinor and Eressëa, an island assigned to the Eldar – set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands. They only set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world. There was no return. The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it.

Judging by the above paragraph, I'm not sure the Istari needed a crew. The road to Aman, or out of it to Middle-Earth, seems to me to be some sort of 'set course' - you either had the permission to enter/leave and were automatically guided towards/out of Aman, or you were forbidden to go, and would not succeed no matter how hard you tried or how great a mariner or ship builder you were.