Grond: Mace or Hammer?

[Gil-Galad]

Let's just ask Grond(the mod),he knows what he is.

 

[Anárion]

Oh yeah, lets. He knows what he is.....or......does he!?!?(This statement could be veeery sick, if you have a bad mind)
So Grond, what are you anyway?

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ceorl
Personally I have always considered a mace as a range of weapons, all of which could be described as maces. I have considered a hammer as a mace type weapon.

I have thought that the description for a mace was the following; a single shaft with a single blunt end, either spiked or not. A hammer fits that description perfectly, and I have always considered it a mace.

Weapons that I do not consider maces are the following; flail, morning stars, all bladed weapons, any ranged weapons, clubs.

Actually, historically, flails and morning stars have often been lumped into the mace class of weapons. Flails and morning stars could accurately be referred to as a variant of mace -- but the mace could not be referred to as a variant of flail, or morning star... while in English, we tend to think of the mace as the round head, or the spiked head, etc. 'mace' was just another word for 'hammer' and is often used interchangably with the term 'warhammer' in medieval texts, although nowadays, if you were to purchase a replica, you would find that the 'warhammers' that are available for sale are quite a bit more hammer-ish than the 'maces' that you now find available for sale...

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
Actually, historically, flails and morning stars have often been lumped into the mace class of weapons. Flails and morning stars could accurately be referred to as a variant of mace -- but the mace could not be referred to as a variant of flail, or morning star... while in English, we tend to think of the mace as the round head, or the spiked head, etc. 'mace' was just another word for 'hammer' and is often used interchangably with the term 'warhammer' in medieval texts, although nowadays, if you were to purchase a replica, you would find that the 'warhammers' that are available for sale are quite a bit more hammer-ish than the 'maces' that you now find available for sale...

Very interesting,I would say.I found similar materials and your idea seems correct,I think.

 

[Maedhros]

Mace or Hammer, that is indeed the question.
You have from Home 4: Quenta:

High Morgoth towered above the head of Fingolfin, but great was the heart of the Gnome, bitter his despair and terrible his wrath. Long they fought. Thrice was Fingolfin beaten to his knees and thrice arose. Ringil was his sword, as cold its blade and as bright as the blue ice, and on his shield was the star on a blue field that was his device. But Morgoth's shield was black without a blazon and its shadow was like a thundercloud. He fought with a mace like a great hammer of his forges. Grond the Orcs called it

From Home 5: Quenta Silmarillion

Then Morgoth hurled aloft as a mace Grond,the hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder.

Could he be that he used Grond (a hammer) as a mace? Not sure myself. Or was it a mace + hammer.

P.S. Since we are talking about the Grond used by Melkor in the Published Silmarillion, doesn't this thread belongs in the Silmarillion Forum?

 

[Anamatar IV]

hmm. Guess it should. What was I high on when I put this here?

I read somewhere that sauron in the last alliance in the movie pj had decided would look like his master. Saurons weapon was a mace.

 

[Walter]

The major deity in the Edda (which probably dates back to ~1000), Thor, uses a war-hammer as his weapon:

Mjöllnir: The war-hammer of Thor, forged by dwarfs, which never misses it's target and returns on its own to Thor's hand after each throw.

I used to think that the Edda was, were Tolkien got his idea of Grond. Mind you, a heavy war-hammer thrown at one's enemies, never missing it's target and returning like a boomerang!

Now that would make Grond but a poor imitation of Mjöllnir, good thing Tolkien didn't provide Melko with such a weapon...

 

[TheFool]

"Then, as it returned, it swung aside in its path, no longer describing a simple parabola, but following instead a new path which seemed to lie along the perimeter of a gigantic Mobius strip which took it round the other side of the Telecom Tower. Then suddenly it was swinging back in a path directly towards them, hurtling out of the night with impossible weight and speed like a piston in a shaft of light. Kate swayed and nearly dropped in a dead faint out of its path, when Thor stepped forward and caught it with a grunt."

from 'The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul' , Douglas Adams

Has anyone read it

 

[Lantarion]

ROTFL!! Yes, I have.
Well found!

 

[Brent]

Originally posted by TheFool
I think Anamatar's pic is a 'Morning Star' too. (Lantarion just beat me to it!)

To further complicate matters, I used to think a morning star was a spiky ball attached to a chain/handle - but no, apparently that is a 'flail' ....

I would say that Grond is a mace (without spikes); I think 'Hammer of the Underworld' is just a phrase (as in 'Flame of the West' etc)

NO a morning star is a particular form of flail.
Thor's hammer is just that - a hammer, larger than a maul but a hammer none the less.

 

[Brent]

The whole problem with Grond, is that Tolkien created his own world but used our language to describe it.

Any loremaster skilled in Elvish have any input as to the weapon's used by Melkor ?

The fact that he swung it mace-like suggests that it could be used in other forms, so I would go with a late War of the Roses type warhammer which could be stabbed swung or otherwise used in nasty ways.

 

[Grond]

My avatar and the picture I've attached are a painting by artist Ted Nasmith and pretty much represent how I have always visualized Grond. It is a long mace-like spear with protrusions below it's mace-like head. It is also pointed and could be used as a spear if necessary.

Nasmith's visualization is that Grond was used to pierce the Two Trees, as well as crush Finwe. It was again used in the battle with Fingolfin. I'm not sure we'll ever know how Tolkien visualized it... but I have it in my mind and that is enough.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Master Grond,I think that after you have written your opinon about what you are,everything is said in this thread.

 

[Anamatar IV]

john howe begs to differ about grond as a hammer. The rest of the scene is of course the epic battle of morgoth and fingolfin but I cropped just the weapon. Not the end of grond (in the red circle) it spiked.

 

[Anamatar IV]

ive been doing my research!!! From http://www.zipworld.com.au/~paulb/Morgoth.html

Tall as a tower, Morgoth wore an iron-crown and black armour. He carried the mace called Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and a huge black shield. The fire of malice was in his eyes, his face was twisted and scarred and his hands burned perpetually from the fire of the Silmarils. Yet in the War of Wrath, all of Melkor’s power was destroyed, and he alone of the Valar was driven from the Spheres of the World, and dwells forever in the Void.

This person seems to think its a mace and that page gives some hefty doses of info.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
john howe begs to differ about grond as a hammer. The rest of the scene is of course the epic battle of morgoth and fingolfin but I cropped just the weapon. Not the end of grond (in the red circle) it spiked.

Actually, I was mistaken. The picture I cited was also by Howe. The mace you speak of, looks very similar to a classic war hammer and not a mace at all. In the picture I cited, the end of the weapon clearly appears mace-like with a war hammer like protrusion slightly below with a pointed base. So both weapons appear to be a combination mace/war-hammer/spear.

Your quote simply reiterates what has been being said all along. Mace derives from the french Mallot which equates to a Mallet. Mallet = Mace = Hammer. Ceremonial maces from England are flat and have no protrusions what so ever. They have already been pictures posted here. Unfortunately, AnnamatarIV you've given us nothing new.

 

[Anamatar IV]

darn! i thought I was on to something. but werent the 2 trees stabbed with a spear? I never thought that grond was also a spear. I always thought that when he stabbed the trees that was before grond was even created (well it was even before the oath of feanor.)

 

[Grond]

from Morgoth's Ring
...'Darkness and blood! When we could move again we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron. We found no others: all had fled, and he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke. All the house was broken and ravaged. Naught is left. The treasuries are empty. The chamber of iron is torn apart. The Silmarils are taken!'

from The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor
...Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground.

It does indeed say spear but either Grond was both Mace and Spear or Melkor wielded both as Finwe appears slain by a crushing weapon like a mace. The actual date of Grond's making is never identified in any of Tolkien's writings.

 

[Walter]

At least in nordic tradition the two weapons "ger" (a spear which was thrown) and "hammer" (war-hammer) were never combined into one weapon... (and IMO wouldn't work well either, because on the one hand when used as a spear and thrown at larger distances the heavier end (hammer) would cause the weapon to somersault and arrive with the hammer frontside. On the other hand the long handle (spear) would be a hinderance to use the hammer effectively as a short distance weapon...)

 

[HLGStrider]

I HAVE SOLVED IT!!!

After reading all this debate and thinking very deeply on the subject it is obvious to me that Grond was....





the first ever....


















SWISS ARMY WEAPON!!!

It had a spear. It had a mace. It had a hammer. It had a screwdriver. It had a tool for putting extra holes in belts. It had a can opener.


You should never leave home without a Swiss Army Grond.