Welcome here Musica!
To understand this and know of the
events in detail, you would actually need to read not LOTR but "The
Hobbit", in which all events are told about the quest for the
Lonely Mountain and the finding of
the Ring.
In particular,
Bilbo's meeting with Gollun is related in Chapter 5 "
Riddles in the Dark":
He suddenly saw the pale eyes sticking out at him.
“Who are you?” he said, thrusting his dagger in front of him.
“What iss he, my preciouss?” whispered Gollum (who always spoke to himself through never having anyone else to speak to). This is what he had come to find out, for he was not really very hungry at the moment, only curious; otherwise he would have grabbed first and whispered afterwards.
“I am Mr. Bilbo Baggins. I have lost the dwarves and I have lost the wizard, and I don’t know where I am; and I don’t want to know, if only I can get away.”
So he gave his true name immediately to Gollum! You can read some references to these events in LotR, like e.g. in Chapter 2 "The Shadow of the Past":
‘He hated Bilbo and cursed his name. What is more, he knew where he came from.’
‘But how did he find that out?’ asked Frodo.
‘Well, as for the name, Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out.
Thanks for the welcome, Merroe! I've read and listened to The Hobbit many times and you're right, Bilbo told Gollum his full name. Still, there's no connection to Frodo in The Hobbit.
But that, of course, doesn't answer the question of how he knew
Frodo was a
Baggins.
I never really thought about it before. Time for research!
Edit: OK, a little browsing has turned this up: When Gollum falls from the cliff in the
Emyn Muil,
Sam jumps him, but Gollum fights back, almost overcoming him, until Frodo comes to his aid:
'Let go! Gollum,' he said. 'This is Sting. You have seen it once upon a time. Let go, or you will feel it this time. I'll cut your throat."
Of course, it's conceivable that Gollum assumed that since a "Baggins" had originally "stolen" his ring, anyone holding it would also be a "Baggins"; there's no indication of that, however.
It's also possible that he might have heard the name sometime between
Moria and the Breaking; I'll have to look further for that.
But it's likely that anyone wielding the
sword of Baggins would be one. At any rate, it's only after this, when Gollum argues with himself, in the desolation around
Mordor, that he refers to "
this Baggins
."
Yes, the fact that Frodo was wearing the ring and that he had Sting is the only evidence I've found. I think Gollum did not
know that Frodo was a Baggins; I think he only assumed it. In Moria, in
Lothlorien, on the river, and in the Emyn Muil, no one ever
says the name of Baggins. In Moria,
Aragorn calls Frodo "Frodo, son of
Drogo." I've found no evidence at all that Gollum ever heard the name Baggins in reference to Frodo.
Here's one possible linking...
We know that Gollum was trapped inside of Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and that Frodo sensed his nearness - footsteps that continued after the party stopped walking, and those pale eyes glowing in the dark - so Gollum might have been close enough to hear
Gandalf exclaiming over
Bilbo's mithril shirt and how valuable it was. The name Bilbo would certainly have gotten Gollum's attention, and the value of the mail shirt was obvious. Gollum was also probably quite close when, after Frodo had been pinned by the
Orc's spear, Gandalf said to him,
'You take after Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.'
Once the Fellowship (and Gollum) made it out of Moria, Aragorn finds time to tend Frodo and Sam's wounds, and discovers that valuable mail shirt.
Merry even links Frodo to Bilbo by saying,
`I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room,'
Granted, now I speculate over whether or not Gollum was capable of inferring that such a valuable
item would only have been handed over to someone with whom Bilbo obviously had a strong relationship, but I submit that in his mind, this linked Frodo, Bilbo and Baggins together. None of the other 3
hobbits had any such connection with Bilbo. Once Gollum sees Sting in Frodo's hand, it's just more confirmation that Frodo was of the hated Baggins line.
All very excellent points, none of which I have ever considered before!
I didn't know Gollum was trapped inside Moria, at least originally. Though I do wonder how he got out so easily. I mean, Gandalf kinda smashed the bridge out.
I never thought Gollum was
trapped inside Moria. I've always thought he went there with the
orcs who rescued him from the
elves in
Mirkwood. As for the bridge, Gollum is extremely cunning and there must have been some other way out of Moria, although the book does not explain this.
BalrogRD: Thanks for pointing out that I inadvertently left out the background for that. In
Unfinished Tales , in the chapter The Hunt for the Ring, it says this:
In D is found an account of how Gollum fared after his escape from the Orcs of Dol Guldur and
before the Fellowship entered the West-gate of Moria. This is in a rough state and has required
some slight editorial revision.
It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron; but being still hunted by Elves, and not yet daring to pass near Lórien (only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this afterwards), he hid himself in Moria.
That was probably in the autumn of the year; after which all trace of him was lost. What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have
he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find "Shire" himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open.
It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.
(Mods, apologies if this quote exceeds limits, or if it is not acceptable to reference Unfinished Tales in
the Lord of the Rings forum. Newbie here, trying to learn Old Gammidgy's ropewalk.
Very interesting. I have
Unfinished Tales but I've either never read it or read it so long ago that I've forgotten it! I must get it out and read it at once.
I think that the question, "How did Gollum know that Frodo was a Baggins?" is an excellent one, and something I never really thought about before. I tend to agree with Thistle Bunce that Gollum, who was following the Fellowship through Moria may have overheard conversations and deduced that Frodo was related to Bilbo. Gollum was most certainly drawn to the Ring and knew that it was Bilbo who "stole" his
precious.
Gandalf mentioned Bilbo when the company spent the night in the great cavernous hall when he was explaining to Sam about the dwarves mining for
mithril. "Bilbo had a corslet of mithril-rings tht
Thorin gave him." (FOTR, A Journey in the Dark). Frodo also called out, "
The Shire!" when stabbing the the hideous foot at the door of the Chamber of Marzibal. Also, as was mentioned before, Gandalf did say to Frodo, "You take after Bilbo....."
Later, once they were just within the eaves of Lothlorien and Aragorn dresses Frodo's wound, Merry says, " I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room."
I've glanced through the text, and Frodo is usually addressed as "Frodo son of Drogo" or as "Mr. Frodo" by Sam, not anyone saying, "
Frodo Baggins". The only thing I can think of is that Gollum made the deduction that Frodo is related to Bilbo from what he overheard, by Frodo having Sting and the Ring.
I agree. I think Gollum can only have assumed that Frodo was a Baggins. There's no evidence that he had any actual knowledge.
Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my question. All excellent! I'm a newbie here and haven't visited the forum since I posted the question in September. I make and sell Christmas crafts on Etsy and I've been working 12-16 hours a day. No, I'm not trying to advertise or promote here, which would be inappropriate. This is only to explain my absence from the forum. I don't want anyone to think that I'm just a one-time visitor. I've browsed many
Tolkien forums and this one is by far the best. Everyone takes the
books seriously and writes very thought-provoking posts. I also take the books seriously. I love Tolkien's works.
As for the movies, I agree they were well done, as movies go. I own them all, but I must admit that I find them irritating. I also have The Hobbit movies. I've never understood why they made three movies from The Hobbit and only one movie for each book of LOTR. I wish they had made three movies for each of the three LOTR books and that they were faithful to the books.
Cheers . . until next time!
Since I find the movies to be excellent sources of frustration, misinformation, and just plain nonsense...I will absolutely refrain from citing them. On a dispassionate level, I can understand their broad appeal, the huge
battles, the (admittedly) breath taking cinematography, and the skillful way the disparities of size were handled, but to use Peter Jackson's vision to support any argument about Tolkien is, frankly, absurd, IMHO. That would be tantamount to claiming that Tchaikovsky wrote the '1812 Overture' in order to sell breakfast cereal. (Hoary old reference, I know.) Appreciate the response and info, SES.
I totally agree that the movies are excellent sources of frustration, misinformation, and just plain nonsense.
Having painted the movies so badly with our combined and well motivated forces...
The (only) good thing these movies did: a very broad public took a new/renewed interest in JRRT's literature. It galvanized websites like this one and others at a moment when the internet was quickly becoming commonplace. People scrambled to see what was really in the true sources.
I call that positive about these movies - even if it be the only thing. And yes: references to what is known as a deformation of literature cannot have a place here.
I agree that the only good thing the movies did was to call attention to Tolkien's work.
