How did 👁️Sauron make darkness?

[gate7ole]

Ok, Sauron may be proved that was behind all the evils of ME. But I have this one question. After the war of the ring and Sauron's destruction, will the evil disappear? Of course not. Many of Sauron's actions will take some time to be wiped. Orcs and wargs will still dwell hidden in forgotten caves. But after years of long labour, even if every orc is hunted down and killed, ME will not be freed from evil. And this will be so because the absolute Bad, Morgoth has contaminated the roots of Arda. Not until the final battle and the remake of it, will the world be freed from it. That's my point. Sauron was a malicious guy, played his part in almost every evil deed, but still he is but a fraction of the evil.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Ok, Sauron may be proved that was behind all the evils of ME. But I have this one question. After the war of the ring and Sauron's destruction, will the evil disappear? Of course not. Many of Sauron's actions will take some time to be wiped. Orcs and wargs will still dwell hidden in forgotten caves. But after years of long labour, even if every orc is hunted down and killed, ME will not be freed from evil. And this will be so because the absolute Bad, Morgoth has contaminated the roots of Arda. Not until the final battle and the remake of it, will the world be freed from it. That's my point. Sauron was a malicious guy, played his part in almost every evil deed, but still he is but a fraction of the evil.

I would rather say he is not behind all the evils... he is just behind the reawakening of many evils in Middle-earth. In the same HoMe text, it speaks of Old Man Willow being awakened... also by Sauron's latest revival. But Gate7ole, you speak the truth. The text back you up 100% in the fact that Sauron is not the ultimate evil.

from The Return of the King, The Last Debate
For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dur, and the hope of Sauron. 'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. 'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.

 

[Elu Thingol]

I tend to look at the last paragraph of the chapter when deciding who was responsible for the storm.

"A cold wind flowed down behind them, as they turned their backs on the Redhorn gate, and stumbled wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them".

The book says it outright Caradhras defeated them, not Sauron, not Saruman, but Caradhras.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Elu Thingol
I tend to look at the last paragraph of the chapter when deciding who was responsible for the storm.



The book says it outright Caradhras defeated them, not Sauron, not Saruman, but Caradhras.

And you would be making an excellent point Elu. I'll change my opinion to Caradhras, just as Gimli implied earlier in the chapter.

 

[Lantarion]

Grond, I think you might be looking at Gandalf's words ("His arm has grown long", in response to Gimli) a bit too straightforwardly. I obviously do not mean to undermine or question your opinion, but hear me out.

Gimli indeed remarks that Sauron's arm has grown long, ie. his might and power to affect happenings in faraway places. But instead of taking Gandalf's remark as a flat concurrance to Gimli's words, I lean towards the fact that he did not quite agree.
Of course, it can be seen that Gandalf thinks that Sauron's arm has grown long. It is explicit, in fact, because Gimli's exact words only imply his opinion:

"His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three thousand leagues away."

The emphasis being on the word "if". I see Gimli's words as more sarcastic than serious; and gandalf's remark only 'corrects' Gimli in the sense that he pronounces the fact that Sauron's arm has indeed grown long. But at the same time Gandalf seems (at least IMHO) to be saying: "His arm has grown long, but I doubt he had anything to do with this." Gandalf of all people knew both Sauron's potential and the 'older forces' of the Earth (ie. Caradhras), and although he himself might not be completely sure of where the unnaturally fierce and frequent snowstorms are coming from, I think he doubts that it is Sauron's doing more than the fact that it might be the mountain itself.
So IMO Gandalf did not believe that Sauron was calling the snows down, but he didn't want Gimli or anybody else underestimating him in any case.

 

[Walter]

Sorry to interrupt all the wise loremasters around with some idle chatter, but I would like to throw in my two cents here anyways...

I usually tend to not bother the "deities" or other "powers" when there are simple physical explanations around, e.g.

A snowstorm in the mountain regions in January does not necessarily have to be made by an evil spirit...

Neither an eruption of a vulcano...

Now, did Sauron make the snowstorm on Caradhras or the darkness at the Dawnless Day? Well, thinking he did, fits much more nicely into the air of mystery and fiction! And who cares if there are other - more plausible - explanations as well...

 

[Elu Thingol]

That is possible but due to Aragorn's quote we can deem it not probable

"I knew the risk of snow, though is seldom falls heavily so far south, save high up in the mountains. But we are not high yet; we are still far down, where the paths are usually open all winter".

 

[TheDarkElf]

Ok, I'm new(ish) here, but I thought I'd give my interpretation of the original question. I always thought that the black cloud that blocked the sun was inevitable if all the hosts of Mordor were mustered. The amount of fire, and machinery to provide armour etc for the orcs would be immense, I always assumed that it was a by-product of the preperations for the war, and not 'magic' as some people put it. So although it was Saurons doing, it was not intentional.

 

[Eriol]

Hello all, I see that this argument brings the best out of everybody's reasoning power. I'd just like to add a small matter for your thought:

Several characters mention that if Sauron wins, he would "cover all the lands in a second Darkness". Now, we (or I, at least) usually think of that as a figure of speech, but what if it is not? The Second Age is referred somewhere as the "Dark Age" in Middle-Earth (as opposed to the great bliss in Númenor). Unfortunately I don't have the quotes in my mind, but Gandalf and Treebeard (at least -- I think Tom Bombadil also) mention the Darkness in words than can be taken quite literally.

Imagine that -- an AGE beneath the Darkness of Sauron! The winds from the sea would help only the coastal peoples, and places like Eriador and Rhovanion would be pitch black! That would make him a REALLY bad dude...

Is this too crazy??

 

[Lantarion]

Hmm, I haven't read the LotR in half a year.. Is there actually a quote saying "second Darkness"? Because as far as I know (ie. can remember ), Gandalf only says that in the movie.. Hmm.
And anyway, a "second Darkness" is completely figurative: I don't think Sauron wants to lay a huge black sheet of smoke over the whole world.. How would he see his slaves suffering and doind all his dirtywork in all that blackness?!

 

[Grond]

The movie speaks of (in the opening dialogue) of a darkness that Sauron brings upon the land at the time of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. It then speaks of the coming of a second darkness should Sauron regain the Ring. This is all figurative talk and does not relate to the real darkness Sauron brought about from his apparent control of weather/Mt. Doom eruption/etc.

 

[Walter]

Another form of darkness which Tolkien used to "cloak" his evil spirits is the darkness that covers Ungoliant

A cloak of darkness she wove about them when Melkor and Ungoliant set forth; an Unlight, in which things seemed to be no more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void.

And today I "accidently" stumbled upon a clue concerning the darkness that surrounded Melkor:

...And with regard to the Enemy, Melkor, in particular, he (Manwe) could not penetrate by distant mind-sight his thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind: which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him.