How many approved unions were there between Eldar and Edain?

[ltnjmy]

Dear All:

Forgive me if these queries have already been posed in other threads. Since I have not yet read the H.O.M.E. - and I love the new information that I learn/enjoy almost on a daily basis from this forum - I was wondering if someone could answer and/or comment on the following:

1) Why does Cirdan the Shipwright have a beard ? I thought that all Elves were beardless. Also -was he a Telerin Elf and who was his overlord ? I do remember reading somewhere that both he and Elrond accompanied Gil-galad on the slopes of Mount Doom during the latter's combat with Sauron at the end of the Second Age (during which both Gil-Galad and Elendil were slain)... ((Was Gil-Galad his overlord - but didn't he shelter Gil-Galad - the last High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth - on the Isle of Balar towards the end of the First Age ?))

2)I read in a recent encyclopedia - I can't remember the exact name but it was something like "Tolkien's world from A to Z" - that said that the Sons of Elrond gave up their immortality by not departing Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age with their father - Is that true ? I recall reading - I believe in the Prologue to the Fellowship of the Ring - by Prof. Tolkien - that although Elrond departed - his sons long remained at Imladris accompanied by Celeborn (after Galadriel's departure)...

3) Unions of the Eldar & Edain - weren't there only 3 approved unions - (a) Luthien & Beren; (b) Idril & Tuor and (c) Arwen and Aragorn - - then why/how did the Princes of Dol Amroth have Elvish blood - weren't these Numenoran (spelling?) princes decended from a female Silvan Elf named Mithrellas ???

Thank you all for your indulgence

sincerely, ltnjmy

 

[Tyelkormo]

Dear All:

Forgive me if these queries have already been posed in other threads. Since I have not yet read the H.O.M.E. - and I love the new information that I learn/enjoy almost on a daily basis from this forum - I was wondering if someone could answer and/or comment on the following:

1) Why does Cirdan the Shipwright have a beard ? I thought that all Elves were beardless. Also -was he a Telerin Elf and who was his overlord ? I do remember reading somewhere that both he and Elrond accompanied Gil-galad on the slopes of Mount Doom during the latter's combat with Sauron at the end of the Second Age (during which both Gil-Galad and Elendil were slain)... ((Was Gil-Galad his overlord - but didn't he shelter Gil-Galad - the last High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth - on the Isle of Balar towards the end of the First Age ?))

Well, way back when Cirdan sheltered him, Gil-Galad was a wee little lad. There are some complicated points about why Cirdan has a beard in the additional texts, but rationalisations aside, I think the good professor mainly wanted to illustrate that Cirdan was the oldest Elf around. I'm sure someone else will provide the in-world rationale.

3) Unions of the Eldar & Edain - weren't there only 3 approved unions - (a) Luthien & Beren; (b) Idril & Tuor and (c) Arwen and Aragorn - - then why/how did the Princes of Dol Amroth have Elvish blood - weren't these Numenoran (spelling?) princes decended from a female Silvan Elf named Mithrellas ???

This is a very tricky issue because time and again, Tolkien phrases his statements on the heritage of the Princes of Dol Amroth in such a fashion that it's entirely possible that this is a local legend. The fact that we have three unions described very explicitly on the other hand doesn't necessarily mean they are the only ones. Mithrellas supposedly was a companion of Nimrodel who became lost in Belfalas and was found by a Numenorean by the name of Imrazôr. Their son, Galador is said to have been the first in the line of the Princes of Dol-Amroth. But much like the final fate of Ungolianth, Tolkien refers to this as what some people claim to be the case, not as fact.

 

[Turgon]

Regarding Imrahil however - doesn't Legolas believe the Prince has elven blood when he first sees him? This by no mean makes whether or not Imrahil has elven blood any clearer, but to me it is a pointer: as an elf likely knows another elf when he sees one. At least as Tyelkormo puts it: from an in-world perspective. I seen no reason there wouldn't have been more mixings of the Eldar and the Edain: in fact the very word 'Union' has always suggested to me that the three marriages we do know of were called 'Unions' as they were the joining of the ruling houses of both kindreds - royal weddings so to speak. The same might not be said about lesser unions: they were just matings ya know?

 

[Starflower]

I seem to remember something similar, Turgon. Doesn't Tolkien actually say that there were only three unions between theEldar and the Edain (I don't have a reference handy, but seem to remember reading this in the UT or somewhere). This would suggest that other Elven races could have easily mingled with Men, especially the exiled Numenoreans.

 

[Elthir]

In my opinion the union of Elves and Men was meant to be rare in Tolkien's world.

'-- The Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to 'nobility' letter 144, 1954

'Elves an Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce offspring -- even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.' draft letter 153, 1954 (a footnote here basically says one would expect three cases).

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death soon should end it.' Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Of course in the last example this is Finrod speaking, a character within the tale, but I still think it's an internal reflection of the idea that Elf-human marriages were generally supposed to be rare, keeping in mind the swift death of the mortal partner, from the perspective of the 'immortal' anyway. If the legend Legolas refers to is true I don't think it opens the flood gates to all kinds of unions between Elves and mortals
(not that anyone said it did). And if true, Mithrellas need not be an Elda, preserving the statement made in the Appendices (technically Arwen was not an Elf but apparently she was considered Eldarin enough to count).

Just my opinion. Other unions are certainly possible of course, and we know relatively little about the Avari, for example. Tolkien's introduction of the legend does make one wonder. But if forced to decide, I think the focus was more on the 'thin line' revealed than the possibility of unrevealed unions. The latter might tend to water down the importance and notability of the former, despite that the blood mixing with Men was Eldarin (notable in this respect).

 

[Starflower]

Here's the actual passages from RoTK:

...and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying: 'Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago.'....

....At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. 'Hail, lord!' he said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.' 'So it is said in the lore of my land,' said the Prince...

To me this seems that although Imrahil himself treats his Elven blood as a legend, Legolas seems to actually confirm Imrahil's Elven descent with his statement.

'The people of Nimrodel' he mentions would have been almost certainly Silvan elves, or Wood-elves (Tawarwaith).

 

[Elthir]

Just to add: Mithrellas is said to be 'not of the High-elves or the Grey' in a note published in Unfinished Tales. Nimrodel or Mithrellas, as Silvan Elves, could have later been imagined as descended from Telerin Tawarwaith. Amroth tells Nimrodel that it is said '... the grace the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the Shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.'

JRRT, Amroth And Nimrodel, 1969 or later