How much do you hate 🧝Feanor!?!?!?!

Ithrynluin · May 28, 2003

This thread is for disliking Fëanor. Get out!

Thank you. Looks like these other people can't figure out how to answer my questions. oh well. I don't get why we can't say that Feanor is great just because he's interesting to read about. Don't people read bookses for the entertainment? If one guy is more entertaining to read about, doesn't that make him better than the types that are in every single story? That's what I thought. Maybe I'm just crazy.

I like reading about him too. But if we were to discuss greatness then Fëanor certainly is NOT great in my book. A bully and kin slayer? I don't think so.

baragund · May 28, 2003

The-Elf-Herself hit the nail on the head.

elves who are perfect tend to get boring

If Feanor was a good boy, then JRRT would have said "... and they lived happily ever after." as soon as the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri entered Valinor. No Silmarillion, no War of the Jewels, no LOTR, nothing. A very blissful but borrrrrrrrrrring existence.

Still, it makes me want to pull out what little hair I have left when I think about what Feanor threw away .

YayGollum · May 29, 2003

Ack! If you only expect people to post in here with their rants about Feanor, should I start up a Feanor Fan Club thread just so we don't get in your way, ithryluin person? Sounds crazy to me when we can keep all of the same type of talk right here. Anyways, if we want to talk about the greatness of the type of thing he did in the book, I'd have to ask how you define greatness. The Sil. says that he was the best at all kinds of things. Or are we just talking about greatness of character? He was the greatest son a father could ever have. Or are we just talking about greatness of actions? Getting all of those songs started is nice. What would the boring elves have to sing about without him? just stuff like ---> "Oh, Valinor is great! Nothing interesting to sing about! Lots of beautifulness and fairness and fun! Doobedoobedoo..." and we all fall asleep.

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
Well, it has bearing on why I think Feanor is great. I'm assuming everyong here knows about all the cool things he did and have mentioned them. They also know about all the "bad" things Feanor did, so while I like Feanor for that as well, I don't see a point of bringing those into play, as others have already done so. I find Feanor more interesting because from an objective standpoint, he stirred things up. Sure, he could have been nice and perfect and handed over the Silmarils, but not only would it have been against his nature, it would have also made for a duller story in my opinion. So I like him on that basis as well and I think it makes him a great character.

Im confused, what "cool" things were you refuring to? The Kin slaying? The refusal of the greater good? or maybe the fact he doomed over half of his people by giving them no other option than to cross the Halecaraxe and then they all died out anyway. Nope there is nothing good about this guy and he certainly wasnt great.
Let me ask you this, if the Sun went out and we were all in darkness and were all doomed as nothing could grow, think about it, around 6.5 billion people could die, would you hand over the one thing that could bring back the sun and keep those 6.5 billion people alive?
You just think about that, for if there was no life then how on Earth (or indeed there would be no Earth) would you be able to cherish this thing of yours? You would be dead...

Beleg · May 29, 2003

The refusal of the greater good? or maybe the fact he doomed over half of his people by giving them no other option than to cross the Halecaraxe and then they all died out anyway

You need to get you facts straightened out Celebthol.

If they all died while crossing Hellcarax then were it the ghosts of Turgon, Fingon, Fingolfin etc, which reached Beleriand?

Fingolfin had the option...he could have turned back...could have saved himself from greater trouble, yet he opted to continue, even if it were for the sake of Kinship.

its good to know they can do no wrong...except the total chump named Feanor

Elves other then Feanor did wrong acts.

Eol and his son Maeglin, who was the cause of the destruction of the fair city of Gondolin.
Celegorm, Cranthir, very harsh people.
Thingol...he wasn't always very wise you know.
People of Fingolfin weren't exactly exempted from the first Kinslaying..

Nope there is nothing good about this guy and he certainly wasnt great.

Erm, oh well here are people doubting Tolkien's written word.

One doesn't have to pure of Body and heart to be great.
Morgoth was great, Sauron was great...other evil's were also great.

Let me ask you this, if the Sun went out and we were all in darkness and were all doomed as nothing could grow, think about it, around 6.5 billion people could die, would you hand over the one thing that could bring back the sun and keep those 6.5 billion people alive?

Feanor wouldn't have died if the two trees weren't reseructed.
Nothing would have happened to the people living in Beleriand...they were used to the darkness.
The two trees were beautiful objects, but they weren't essentially necessary for the cause of Elves and Valars' lives.

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

Would you go back in shame to Valinor if you were Fingolfin? Feanor know exactly what he had done by taking the ships and burning them, the Helecaraxe was perriolous and many did die on it needlessly!
None did a greater wrong act than Feanor and the Kin slaying, this was IMO the worst thing that ever happened on Arda, including all what Morgoth did aswell!
How can things grow without light? There would be little happiness in Valinor without the light, whats the use of being alive if you cant enjoy it?!

Beleg · May 29, 2003

Would you go back in shame to Valinor if you were Fingolfin? Feanor know exactly what he had done by taking the ships and burning them, the Helecaraxe was perriolous and many did die on it needlessly!

Point One: Going back or not doesn't mean that he wasn't given the choice. We are not talking about going back, but whether he had a choice or not.

Point Two: Agreed that many died needlessly, but how does this negate my point? Or perhaps I have interpreted the post in a wrong manner, this is not meant to answer my Questions but are just mere thoughts.

None did a greater wrong act than Feanor and the Kin slaying, this was IMO the worst thing that ever happened on Arda, including all what Morgoth did aswell!

Your opinion is your opinion, but the worst thing that happened to Arda was the corruption of Elves, Men into Orcs by Melkor, IMO.

How can things grow without light? There would be little happiness in Valinor without the light, whats the use of being alive if you cant enjoy it?!

How do you think Elwe and other Sindar, Nandor and Avari lived? Their was starlight...Elves upon being born had seen starlight as the first light and they loved it...and were perfectly capable in living on it.
Didn't things grow in Middle Earth, In Beleriand? Weren't elves living in Middle-Earth, away from the light of the two trees, under the light of their beloved stars...
The Bliss of Valinor might have been lessened, and was lessened but the tree's death wouldn't mean that Elves would become extinct.

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

Alright alright, no need to grill me, but what is worse killing your own friends who you love? or a possible theory on where Orcs came from, it is never truely stated the exact origins of Orcs just guesses.
Elwe for one was in the girdle of Melian, that had some power of growth from Valinor.
And ok, things grew i admit it, but there was no longer a sacred realm a place of total peace, the Trees were gone and could have been brought back, this would have stopped all the hurts that Morgoth caused before and after, but no, Feanor is to blind, pathetic and dumb to realise this!

Beleg · May 29, 2003

Alright alright, no need to grill me, but what is worse killing your own friends who you love? or a possible theory on where Orcs came from, it is never truely stated the exact origins of Orcs just guesses.
Elwe for one was in the girdle of Melian, that had some power of growth from Valinor.
And ok, things grew i admit it, but there was no longer a sacred realm a place of total peace, the Trees were gone and could have been brought back, this would have stopped all the hurts that Morgoth caused before and after, but no, Feanor is to blind, pathetic and dumb to realise this!

1. First of all I am not sure that Feanor really loved the Teleri...I am not saying that It was an honorable deed, quite to the contrary.

2. As for the real Origin of Orcs theory, please read Myths Transformed.

3. Griddle of Melian was not set until Melkor was free again.

4. It might have brought the light back on, but the peace of Aman would have been destroyed. Feanor's heart would never have been the same against, and Finwe's death would have dealt the Noldo a great blow. Things would have boiled up and would have exploded...On the spur of the moment Feanor might have given the Silmaril's but the lust and love his heart had for the Silmaril's would have been inflamed and further woe and grieve would have been brough in Valinor...but that all is if he would have been in the position of giving them to the Valar...which he sadly wasn't in.

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

1) It was a disgusting deed and the worst Arda had seen IMHO!

2) That is by no means confirmation, as it was never written in any official book what Mr Tolkien intended to do with the origins of Orcs!

3) Gah, ya got me here...

4) His unrest could have been healed, all things could find healing in Valinor, and it would be even easier with the two Trees, if it caused that much problem, then Feanor could have gone to Manwe personally and sort for it to be fixed, i.e. getting Mandos to let the spirit of Finwe to be let loose among the Noldor again etc, and the Silmarills could have been remade, they were made once they could be again! Thats just plain hard fact!

Beleg · May 29, 2003

2) That is by no means confirmation, as it was never written in any official book what Mr Tolkien intended to do with the origins of Orcs!

Most of us take Myths Transformed as more of a canon then Silmarillion which was a work done by Christopher Tolkien (done as In hugely edited), meanwhile Myths Transformed was a purely Tolkien work and quite late in his life...in which Tolkien presented the concept of a changed Middle Earth.

Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar Myths Transformed

It seems that Tolkien's ideas on Orcs continually varied in details and this is the final form.

However, this is not the thread to discuss the origin of Orcs.

all things could find healing in Valinor,

Not all, the sorrow of Miriel wasn't healed, the enimity between Fingolfin and Feanor wasn't healed. The grudge that Feanor bore against his part brothers was never completely neutralized.

getting Mandos to let the spirit of Finwe to be let loose among the Noldor again etc

Is it easy to get Mandos to do it? Mandos in the written history is believed to have only been moved once; by the song of Luthien, greatest of Children of Eru.

and the Silmarills could have been remade, they were made once they could be again! Thats just plain hard fact!

From SilmarillionFor the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like;

Need I say more?

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

Ok lets leave the Orc thing now.

And just who was at the centre of all the sorrow in Valinor?! need I say more?

But there was unrest in Valinor and that cannot be, if it is the power of the Valar to keep all happy i have no doubt that Manwe would command it, Mandos is after all under the command of Manwe...

Yes i know what Feanor said, by i dont see why not, they were inanimate (sp) objects, Feanor still had a powerful spirit and will, i see no reason that he could not remake the Silmarils, they were not living things like the Trees. And if the greater part of his life force HAD passed into the Silmarils then he had a superly amazingly powerful spirit before he had created them and therefore could have defeated anybody; Valar or Eldar in any form of battle if we concider how powerful he was when he arrived on back to ME, so yes im affraid you need to say more, i am not convinced...

Beleg · May 29, 2003

Yes i know what Feanor said, by i dont see why not, they were inanimate (sp) objects,

You can believe all you want, but Feanor couldn't make the Silmaril's again, not ever. They were a only-once achieved feat.

And just who was at the centre of all the sorrow in Valinor?! need I say more?

Melkor.

But there was unrest in Valinor and that cannot be, of Manwe...

Err tell me, How was Feanor supposed to give the Silmaril's to Yavanah, specially after the news came from Formenos?

Valar or Eldar in any form of battle if we concider how powerful he was when he arrived on back to ME, so yes im affraid you need to say more, i am not convinced...

FEANOR COULD NEVER EVER, BE HE MOST POWERFUL OR NOT, FIGHT A VALA AND HOPE TO WIN. I dont have the Quote handy but It has been explictly stated that Feanor cannot fight a Vala.

I am not trying to convince you about anything...so I don't understand what you are talking about...

Celebthôl · May 29, 2003

If he loved them that much, then they could be created again!

He was supposed to say "Yes Yavanna, I see that they are needed for the greater good, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (proper Vulcan quote there ).

No it was not Melkor, Melkor did not make Feanor hate Fingolfin, and Feanor is connected to all the hurts in Valinor EVERY SINGLE ONE!!

So concindering how powerful Feanor was when he arrived in Middle Earth, and for him to not be able to make the Silmarils again he HAD to have poured over half his life force into making them, therefore he was more powerful then a Valar.

I am not convinced that he couldnt make the Silmarils again, he clearly could!

Beleg · May 30, 2003

If he loved them that much, then they could be created again!

Just because I love "her" wouldn't mean I'll get "her".

No it was not Melkor, Melkor did not make Feanor hate Fingolfin,

IIRC, It was due to Morgoth's lie's that the hate in Feanor's heart against Fingolfin was inflamed. Morgoth was the base behind all the evil that was created/stirred in Arda Marred Including Valinor.

Feanor is connected to all the hurts in Valinor EVERY SINGLE ONE!!

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I can't for the heck of my life fathom HOW Feanor can be accused of the slitting of the two trees and the killing of Finwe?

So concindering how powerful Feanor was when he arrived in Middle Earth, and for him to not be able to make the Silmarils again he HAD to have poured over half his life force into making them, therefore he was more powerful then a Valar.

Evidance please...
How can a child of Eru be greater then the gods...You are stating as if you have concrete evidance to back your claim with...care to enlighten us with the evidance?

I am not convinced that he couldnt make the Silmarils again, he clearly could!

What can I say? I can't change your belief if you yourself aren't willing to look at the facts and evaluate them neutrally, not in the way you wish them to be.

Celebthôl · May 30, 2003

No but she has her own will, the Silmarils do not.

But it was always with Feanor, he is connected with every hurt that Valinor recieved.

Lets see, Finwe, Feanors father, BIG connection there, the Trees, the Light of which ONLY remained in the Silmarils, another BIG connection.

Well from what you said, that he could not remake the Silmarils, this clearly states that Feanor must have put over half his spirit and soul into the making of the Silmarils to make it entirely impossible, and look how powerful he was after their creation, clesrly by what you have stated he had such a powerful spririt before their creation that he was surely the most powerful being on Arda .

Its his word against practise, i bet if he handed over the Silmarils he would have attemped and succeded in making them again.

Elendil3119 · May 30, 2003

Celeb, connection does not necessarily mean fault. My dad is my dad, but I am not held accountable if he commits a crime. You're being unfair to poor Feanor, saying that he was connected to every hurt in Valinor. Maybe he was, but that does not mean he had a part or was at fault in them all.

Celebthôl · May 30, 2003

Im afraid it does, i cant see it any other way with Feanor, and i am by no means being unfair to him, you want unfair please read my opening post to this thread!

YayGollum · May 31, 2003

I just love having my questions ignored. oh well. My fun is over now. How's about you get to answering them? I asked how you define greatness. I tossed in some examples for how you could be more specific. Things like greatness of character or actions or something. Anyways, this is fun. Even though some people might partly agree with you, it looks like you're fighting a hopeless fight. Have fun! Too bad I'm a fan of Feanor. oh well. I don't get why you think you have a good reason to hate a character just because he's related to someone that gets killed by some evil dude.

Celebthôl · May 31, 2003

You silly billy, thats not the reason I hate him at all, quit twisting my words! I hate him for all the actions he took, if you can honestly tell me than any of them were just then you are crazy, now what was your question, ill be glad to answer it...

How much do you hate 🧝Feanor!?!?!?!

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