How old is The Mouth of 👁️Sauron?

[Brent]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Sauron didn't make the Rings of Power, the Mírdain of Eregion did. Sauron only helped them with his knowledge.

I think not. I think you will find that Sauron AKA Annatar was behind the rings of power, three were forged without him and ONLY those three are pure, the others had his hand upon them. I'm sure if you read the works you will find this stated.
If you work in a smithy the smith wont just tell you what to do, he will show you with his own creation and shape yours, hands on.
Sauron moulded those rings to his purpose.

It is the THREE that took his pure Maia knowledge, uncontaminated by his malice and desire that therefore made something good.
Knowledge is neither good nor evil only the use of it proves anything. The Noldor where not capable of making such things alone, nor had they ever done so, it was Sauron alone who came amongst them and understood the desires of their hearts.
There is a fine line between the Noldor's desires and the Saurons. That is one of the themes of LOTS - the sole desire to create and take pleasure in creation and the desire to totally own and dominate that creation. I assume Sauron started that way as a Maia of Aule and then he lost his way.

 

[Gamil Zirak]

Sauron only forged the one. The elves forged the nine and seven, but Sauron directed them in their making.

 

[Lantarion]

Hmm.. Can we have a tie-breaker opinion from somebody here?

 

[Gamil Zirak]

Whoa Pontifex, I mean Lantarion. Nice new name!!

Ok, back on subject. Too bad Tolkien didn't leave a letter liying around about the mouth. Imagine all of the questions he would get if he was alive now. Sheesh.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Beorn
That could be arguable. What if Sauron had made something for him to extend his life...look at the Nazgul...Maybe he just hadn't gotten to 'wraithness' yet...

I disagree with the formidible Beorn.

From The Return of the King, The Black Gate Opens,
The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

The Dark Tower began to be rebuilt in 2951, so it can be guessed that the Mouth of Sauron would be about the same age as Aragorn who was born in the TA 2931.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Brent
I think not. I think you will find that Sauron AKA Annatar was behind the rings of power, three were forged without him and ONLY those three are pure, the others had his hand upon them. I'm sure if you read the works you will find this stated.
If you work in a smithy the smith wont just tell you what to do, he will show you with his own creation and shape yours, hands on.
Sauron moulded those rings to his purpose.

It is the THREE that took his pure Maia knowledge, uncontaminated by his malice and desire that therefore made something good.
Knowledge is neither good nor evil only the use of it proves anything. The Noldor where not capable of making such things alone, nor had they ever done so, it was Sauron alone who came amongst them and understood the desires of their hearts.

There is a fine line between the Noldor's desires and Sauron's. That is one of the themes of LOTR - the sole desire to create and take pleasure in creation and the desire to totally own and dominate that creation. I assume Sauron started that way as a Maia of Aule and then he lost his way.

From The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,
...Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

Now the Elves make many rings; but secretly Sauron made one Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. and while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

In Unfinished Tales it speaks of the Nine and the Seven being made with Sauron's aid but it also speaks of him leaving Eregion in SA 1500 shortly after the Rings of Power had begun being forged. That could mean that he took part in the early forging of the Nine and the Seven or that he simply provided guidance in their crafting. The Three were completely unsullied by Sauron's influence but since the knowledge came from his teachings, they too were subservient to the One.

Brent, I am surprised at your comments concerning the Three and your statement that

"It is the THREE that took his pure Maia knowledge, uncontaminated by his malice and desire that therefore made something good. Knowledge is neither good nor evil only the use of it proves anything. The Noldor where not capable of making such things alone, nor had they ever done so, it was Sauron alone who came amongst them and understood the desires of their hearts."

You must have forgotten who it was that made those things which surpassed the Rings of Power and which even surpassed the creation of the Ruling Ring. Those things were the Silmarils and the one who created them was Feanor, a Noldo. Shame on you!!!!

 

[aragil]

Grr-ond? Who is this Gr-ond the message board speaks of?

I think I disagree with you on the Mouth being the same age as Aragorn. We know he entered the service of Sauron in 2951, but we don't know if this was an act of youth or old age. As has been pointed out before, the Mouth had forgotten his own age. Two details we do know of him, he had forgotten his own name and he had 'learned great sorcery'. Given that we don't hear anything about him again, it behooves us to think about these two details. Hmm, he can ride a horse, he's great at sorcery, and Sauron trusts him as an emissary. If he's great at sorcery then he's probably not exactly a mental midget- so no need to forget his own name in order to remember more important things. On the other hand, he's still able to ride a horse and act as an effective (i.e. cruel) emissary, so he's probably not suffering from senility. I don't think it's normal for an 80 year old who is 1)smart and 2)not senile to forget his own name, so I must assume that he is far older than you suggest. Fortunately, there is plenty to back me up on this, of the sort:

from the Silmarillion

Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Numenoreans began to hunger for the undying city tht they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.

and

But the fear of death grew ever dearker upon them, and they delayed it by all means that they could; and they began to build great houses for thier dead, while thier wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life, or at the least of the prolonging of Men's days.

Certainly, the possibility that Mouthy had learned some of these secrets exists, and this would go some way to explaining his 2 peculiar characteristics, IMO.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by aragil
...Certainly, the possibility that Mouthy had learned some of these secrets exists, and this would go some way to explaining his 2 peculiar characteristics, IMO.

There is nothing you quote that lends any credence to any Man prolonging his life beyond his normal years other than the Ringwraiths who ceased to be Men and became only shades of themselves. The Mouth of Sauron was clearly not a Wraith (from the author's own words) and was a Man of likely Black Numenorean descent. I have my own evidence directly from the Sil.

The Silmarillion, The Akallabêth,
For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar.

It seems to me that if the Valar themselves could not take the weariness of the world from Man, then Man himself most certainly could not do so... but I could be wrong.

 

[aragil]

Well, I'll agree with you in that he was at least as old as Aragorn. But why would Tolkien say that Mouthy had forgotten his own name, if not to hint at great age (beyond the long span of Numenoreans)? Shirley this was a hint, and not just mis-spent verbiage?

Remember, your quote from the Akallabeth is in regards to whether or not the Valar could change the fundamental nature of Men, from mortal to immortal (within the confines of Arda, as always). However, your quote does prove that the length of Men's stay in Arda could be lengthened- here by gift of the Valar (elsewhere it is said that the Numenoreans live longer because their lifestyle approached that of the Eldar). We are also told that the lifespans of the Edain immediately increased the moment they set foot in Beleriand- the first three Generations of Beor's house lived past their 90th year, when beforehand the Men of Beor's house had usually died of old age by ~70.
So I think there is evidence that Men's lifespan could be extended- naturally in the case of the Dunedain, perhaps unnaturally in the case of Mouthy. Again I have to ask, why else would he forget his true name, and why would Tolkien mention 'great sorcery', when Mouthy does not seem to demonstrate this talent at the Gates?

(edit) oops, fogot to mention: My above quote does not show that Numenoreans ever discovered how to extend their lives (indeed I omitted the part immediately following which says that all the Numenoreans could learn to do was preserve the bodies in death). However, it does show that the Numenoreans were concerned with extending their life, and they put a considerable amount of effort into finding it. The Black Numenoreans (and hence mouthy) were descended from these darker elements in Numenor, so perhaps (just perhaps) Mouthy is an example of a BN who finally did stumble upon the long sought-after secret, perhaps (again perhaps) making his discovery with the aid of Sauron.

 

[Brent]

Originally posted by Grond
Brent, I am surprised at your comments concerning the Three and your statement that You must have forgotten who it was that made those things which surpassed the Rings of Power and which even surpassed the creation of the Ruling Ring. Those things were the Silmarils and the one who created them was Feanor, a Noldo. Shame on you!!!!

Well I see it a little differently, I'm not sure the Silmarils "surpassed" the ruling ring that depends on how you look at it. [Ahhh! the wrath of Grond, quick leap aside !!] the Rings are active things, that bring about change to conform to ones will, the Silmarils simply exist, if they have any powers at all these are the result of the light within them which is that created by the Valar.

The rings represent a desire to control, to shape. Such desire can be good or evil, though of course its the first steps down a certain path throughtout the books. The ONE contains the dark spirit of Sauron so would ultimately corrupt the wearer.

 

[Gamil Zirak]

Originally posted by Brent

... the Silmarils simply exist, if they have any powers at all these are the result of the light within them which is that created by the Valar.

If the ruling ring has any power it's because of the power of Sauron poored into it.

 

[Eriol]

What a little gem of a thread .

I think like aragil; I think that M-o-S is much older than Aragorn. One point that I think was not raised is that Sauron was known as the Necromancer; it is the business of Necromancers to prolong life by wicked (cursed) means, as well of raising the dead. Perhaps Sauron did stumble on some knowledge for prolonging life (genetic engineering? ).

My reasons for agreeing with Aragil are also similar to his own -- the fact that M-o-S forgot his own name is very telling, and the fact that he was a sorceror, as well as trusted by Sauron. The "young M-o-S" hypothesis (that is, as young as Aragorn) does not appeal to me, unless we accept Lantarion's speculation that "Mouth of Sauron" was an office; a line of men holding that office would explain a lot, then. A very interesting idea! This would still result in a man roughly the same age as Aragorn, but it would give a good reason for him to forget his name -- he would have had to drop it and take the name of the office.