Kingship over Noldor: Whose right was it?

[Celebthôl]

I never said anything about a "rightful" king. I simply said a King had to have the support of his people or be able to dominate them in order to enforce his kingship. Let's say that Feanor had the support of the Teleri and was able (through an alliance with them) to enforce his claim against Fingolfin's people... Feanor would be the King of the Noldor... no ifs, ands or buts about it... And... if I have the force and the power to enforce my claim... then I certainly have the "Right" to be King. By my own actions, I have made my own "right".

Ooooh! I see what you mean!! Sorry my mistake! But if that happened to me, i wouldnt accept him as King!

 

[Grond]

Ooooh! I see what you mean!! Sorry my mistake! But if that happened to me, i wouldnt accept him as King!

And, knowing how Feanor typcially dealt with people who didn't agree with him... he would have had you imprisoned at best or executed at worst. Feanor was the greatest elf but greatest at what??

Where are my ole friends Gil-galad or Maedhros to defend the poor, picked on Feanor??? LOL!!

 

[Manveru]

And, knowing how Feanor typcially dealt with people who didn't agree with him... he would have had you imprisoned at best or executed at worst. Feanor was the greatest elf but greatest at what??

nicely said *thumbs up*

 

[Lhunithiliel]

If we are to "judge" the right of being the king, then I think most probably it should've been Feanor and that he became...
That is, if among the Eldar the right of the firstborn was so strongly observed. It seems it was. Strange it is how they had come up to this idea, but that's another story!

Besides, Feanor was a true leader, regardless of the poison in his mind "injected" by Melkor. It's wrong to judge him only for his deeds of the last years of his life. What he had achieved and done for his people before that is enough for him to claim the kingship.

Fingolfin might have been wiser and more tolerant and all ... Yet, even he followed Feanor. Why? Apart and except all motives he had, I am sure he respected the right of the firstborn - that is the right of Feanor to be the King after Finwe's death. By this even he confirmed the right of Feanor to be the King of Noldor.

 

[Grond]

If we are to "judge" the right of being the king, then I think most probably it should've been Feanor and that he became...
That is, if among the Eldar the right of the firstborn was so strongly observed. It seems it was. Strange it is how they had come up to this idea, but that's another story!

Besides, Feanor was a true leader, regardless of the poison in his mind "injected" by Melkor. It's wrong to judge him only for his deeds of the last years of his life. What he had achieved and done for his people before that is enough for him to claim the kingship.

Fingolfin might have been wiser and more tolerant and all ... Yet, even he followed Feanor. Why? Apart and except all motives he had, I am sure he respected the right of the firstborn - that is the right of Feanor to be the King after Finwe's death. By this even he confirmed the right of Feanor to be the King of Noldor.

If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal.

As you point out, Fingolfin never chose to assert a claim to the Kingship because he was such a loyal son and brother. These characteristics are what make him so attractive as a character and is why so many of his people were drawn to him and refused to follow Feanor. They saw Feanor's heart... and it was cold.

 

[Confusticated]

In a late essay (as well as in the Later Quenta) Tolkien makes clear that Fingolfin did make claim to the kingship over the Noldor while Feanor lived, and did pursue this. While it is not stated in The Silmarillion, there is also nothing said that rules it out.

What we are told though, is that Fingolfin went because Fingon urged him, his words to Feanor before Manwe, he didn't want to leave his people (who would not renounce him if he would go with them) to the rash Feanor.

 

[Maedhros]

If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal.

Finwë had not given up his kingship of the Ñoldor, he simply holded himself "unkinged" while accompaning Fëanor in Formenos. If nothing had happened, then Finwë would have returned to Tirion and assumed his kingship of the Ñoldor.
Note that Fingolfin is not as honourable as you would make us think. Remember that it was Fingolfin the one who spoke against Fëanor in the Council without the presence of his brother.
Remember that while Fingolfin said to Fëanor that he will lead and I will follow, when Fëanor spoke in Tirion after the death of Finwë, there was almost a battle between them. We have to note that Fingolfin indeed followed Fëanor afterwards.

As you point out, Fingolfin never chose to assert a claim to the Kingship because he was such a loyal son and brother. These characteristics are what make him so attractive as a character and is why so many of his people were drawn to him and refused to follow Feanor. They saw Feanor's heart... and it was cold.

This is both right and wrong.
We can use The Silmarillion account or the Shibboleth.
In The Silmarillion, it is indeed true that it is not mentioned that Fingolfin asserted his claim to the Kingship of the Ñoldor, and that it was his desire of not wanting to leave his people that drove him to follow Fëanor. (and his oath to his brother too).
In the Shibboleth of Fëanor, Fingolfin did indeed claimed the kinship of the Ñoldor and he even changed his name to Ñolofinwë.
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor

Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.

As to who of the two had the best claim for the Kinship, it would have to be Fëanor on the grounds that he was the eldest son, yet it was his own actions before and after his banishment that harmed him. Fingolfin's position as the ruler of the Ñoldor in Tirion could not be supplanted by Fëanor, although Fingolin only became the King of the Ñoldor after the death of Fëanor.

What about the Oath of Fingolfin to Fëanor?
One might wonder if the fact that Fingolfin swore to Fëanor that he will follow him does not in fact would account to Fingolfin accepting Fëanor as the King of the Ñoldor.
The most simple answer would be yes, but one has to remember that when Fingolfin swore that oath, neither of them would know that Finwë would die. Also that this was a unique situation. No one had ever died (destruction of the hröa) in Aman, and certainly there were no other half-brothers either.
So, IMO, when Fingolfin decided to follow Fëanor he kept his word.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

No leader is a true leader if he lets himself be influenced by the desires of others and if he lets himself serve to causes and aims of others.

If Fingolfin got involved in Feanor's march out of Aman because he was "urged" by his sons, that definitely does not speak of him as a true leader. Were he a really great leader, he would've stood up for his cause firmly and would've not followed Feanor for no "urging" from nobody. He would've stayed in Tirion and would've kept his people with him, and only then he could've prove himself as a true King preventing the misfortunes that later befell on the Noldor.
But he did nothing of that.

If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal.

But, Master, isn't the word "lust" too strong? Why ... all his achievements from the years before ... they were all a result from his everlasting desire to achieve perfection. This is not lust, IMO. He was attracted by beauty, perfection, light ... he aimed at achieving those in his works and he managed to.
I don't understand why would he be blamed for the troubles of the world if it were the Valar who, by their passive behaviour and lack of vigilance or awareness let Melkor and Ungoliant destroy the Trees, spill blood and poison the minds of the Noldor; and not been "wise" enough to save on the precious light, only small a portion of which was enclosed into the Silmarilli.
And
This whole thing about the demand from the Valar that the Silmarilli were to be handed to them ... I don't see much sense in it. I have thought ... What if they had them. Would've that small portion of the precious light in the stones been enough to revive the Trees? I doubt it. Then why?

But .. I'm going astray... I should sit and eventually write that essay that I've had the idea about for months - "The Children or the Jewels" .

 

[Lhunithiliel]

VOTE , Maedhros!

VOTE!