Let's Talk About Middle-Earth as if It Is Real.

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

Anyone heard the Bermuda Triangle is actually the Straight Way? That's why the ships disappear in that location. Either those are Elves sailing to Valinor who have remained thus far here, or those are unfortunate Men being whirlpooled by the wrath of Ossë. Serious business this is.

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This just reminded me of a short story I had to write in high school speculating about ourselves in the year 2100. I'd be 99 years old by the end of that year. So I wrote a story about an evil hacker who is starting to mind control the world through their mobile devices. Upon witnessing the chaos on my daily walk outside, I thought to myself 'starting tomorrow, I will probably have to warn the people who are still un-mind-controlled about this, for now I need a nap'. But I didn't even end up doing that. Because there was a stealth invasion of friendly extraterrestrials with the goal of saving Earth and all its people from this terrible fate. When they started arriving, I boarded one of their spaceships and just left the planet, because I'm Way Too Old For This And They Can Sort Their Problems Out Themselves. And I was content to live the rest of my life in the alien world.

Now that I think about it, this is pretty much what the Elves were doing in the Third Age...

I have been an attorney for 50 years and for that reason adhere to the alternate universe theory. Not for historical or geographical, but for psychological reasons. Tolkien’s people are heroes; no groups in history has ever acted like these guys. Almost all the leaders I know act like Saruman, Denethor, or the Master of Laketown. If Middle Earth were our world, people have degenerated to an unbelievable extent. We are not that much better than the ancients, except technoligically, but surely we are not that much worse.

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

Tolkien is the Father of Modern Fantasy as we know it. He labored over every word of his works as a historian and linguist, bringing Arda into being as we read about it today, as if it were a real time in our world of old. Tolkien himself has said he does not feel he entirely made up Middle-Earth. We know Middle-Earth's history is written as a mythological history of the early days of Earth. Often though, mythology is founded upon truth.

So let's take a step back and discuss Middle-Earth as if it is real. What are the implications of this in our lives, how does this shape our viewing of these worlds collided, and how do we reconcile Tolkien's legendarium to this life as we know it?

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I know of a book that spends an entire chapter explaining Tolkiens historical view of Middle-earth, as if they were real events!

Shameless, I know.

1stvermont said:

I know of a book that spends an entire chapter explaining Tolkiens historical view of Middle-earth, as if they were real events!

Amazon.com

Shameless, I know.

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"There are fans of J.R.R. Tolkien, and then there are those who would trade a genuine elven sword for a chance to visit Middle-earth."

- How do you even get a genuine Elven sword if you don't visit Middle-earth? 🤔
And what use would this sword have outside Middle-earth?

Muskrat said:

I have been an attorney for 50 years and for that reason adhere to the alternate universe theory. Not for historical or geographical, but for psychological reasons. Tolkien’s people are heroes; no groups in history has ever acted like these guys. Almost all the leaders I know act like Saruman, Denethor, or the Master of Laketown. If Middle Earth were our world, people have degenerated to an unbelievable extent. We are not that much better than the ancients, except technologically, but surely we are not that much worse.

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Interesting! So, if I follow your meaning here, it is the integrity of the main characters that we yearn for when we wish to be in Tolkien's Middle Earth instead of this... whatever this is. I must agree! With but few exceptions it is possible in Tolkien's world to easily tell the good from the bad. Orcs and goblins bad, Hobbits and Elves good. Men and Dwarves... meh... can go either way. Magic exists, and certain individuals may wield great power, for good or ill. To outward appearances our world is not so very much different. Technologies indistinguishable from magic are features of our everyday lives. Everyone has their own Palantir and can get news (or at least information) from everywhere all the time, And yet, as with the Seeing Stones of Numenor, we cannot always trust what we see. Disinformation is now the main weapon of the Dark Lord and his willing minions. But unlike Tolkien's world, we here cannot tell the good from the bad just by looking. The orcs and goblins lurk among us and can be known only by their actions. And the ring... ah yes the ring. At least seven countries now possess the RING. If ANY of them use it, it is likely they ALL will, and the world will be covered in a darkness from which we may never recover. The signal fires have not yet been lit. The Battle of Evermore lies still before us.

This IS Middle Earth my friends! It is up to each and every one of us to stand up and imagine ourselves in the Company of the Fellowship in our every waking deed. We must each BE the best possible human we can be. Be grateful for what we have. Show respect for those who do good. Have empathy for those in hardship. Do good deeds every day, whether small or large, it is the GOODness that counts. Turn not away from wrongdoing but stand against those who would prey on the innocent. Fight lies with truth, fear with love, hate with forgiveness, and calamity with willingness to work. Fear not for ourselves, but have hope for a future world, a fourth age of this world when every year is as SR1420 in The Shire. A time when we can sit on the stoop and have a long talk with Tom Bombadil. A time when our greatest worries will be wayward animals and larders stuffed with too much food. But to get there, we must BE the heroes in our own stories, we must climb Mount Doom, storm the Black Gates, and defend the Hornburg in our own way and our own time. And it matters not whether songs be sung in after days of our deeds. For WE will know in our hearts who we truly are.

Will Whitfoot said:

And yet, as with the Seeing Stones of Numenor, we cannot always trust what we see. Disinformation is now the main weapon of the Dark Lord and his willing minions.

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I see a certain equivalence in naivety between the Elves who gave the Palantiri to the Faithful of Númenor, and the creators of our current version of the Palantiri. Sauron or Saruman getting hold of one of them was not on the Elven "radar". The Saurons (several) of our time have legions of Orcs (often misnamed trolls) at work for them, and the Sarumans (millions of them) probably have even more of these brutes, having the financial means that no current Gandalfs can remotely match.

So this thread of: "Let's talk about Middle-earth as if it were real" has got me thinking, a lot. Expanding upon my last post (up a couple) and based on the premise offered by Muskrat (up further still), that the feature of Middle-earth that we find attractive is the heroic characters. Aragorn is strong, wise, long-lived, gracious, empathetic, and has nobility of heart that bursts all bounds. We simply ACHE to be as he is. It is not the sword! His greatness is within. Frodo has a simplicity of character that accepts the smallness of his nature and position... only the immensity of the one-ring's evil tempts him near the end, but he perseveres beyond what anyone else could have. And Gandalf... I mean Come ON! Who would not want to have his depth of knowledge, his wisdom, and yes, power for good? And yet only in the face of greatest evil does he show it forth. He is content to sit on a bench and have a pipeful of Old Toby. and let the world work out its own problems. He NEVER EVER uses his power to enrich or aggrandize himself (unlike Saruman). So, what we love about Middle-earth is these aspects of character that any and all of us can cultivate within ourselves. It is not Middle-earth... the physical realm of Arnor, Gondor, Mordor and The Shire that makes the place so attractive... it is the heroism lurking in the simplest folk. It may well be that most of us will never be at the nexus of power and face a world-changing crux of decision. But then again, some of us may. We can never tell what small kindness of ours for a stranger will bear fruit in some later time and place. We need to always remember that heroism is not just at huge moments in history, or in a story book, but it happens in everyday interactions between seemingly ordinary people, simple selfless kindnesses that inspire others to "pay it forward". It has been calculated that one simple good deed or kind word can, if passed along, saturate over 99% of the world's population in just three days. Can we even imagine what the world would be like if we were all like the heroes we admire?

But the Palantiri of our days are swamped with the hate-mongering, often subtle in the innuendo vein, of the Sauron & Saruman crowd. Like all totalitarian systems they know that it's a good idea to catch people when they're very young and not remotely able to think for themselves. Naziism, Stalinism, Maoism et. al. were simply the most blatant versions of the last century, often taking their cue from others that had been at it for centuries at least. And all too often normally reputable Palantiri have not been able to resist the urge to jump on the propaganda lies bandwagon, simply because the S&S filth brayed like Melko's trumpeters - monotonous but unrelenting.
S&S ... subtract the & ... now what does that remind me of ... 🤔

Today in Middle-earth, brought to you by Faux News! A spokesman for Barad-Dur says that Mordor's freedom fighters have liberated the traditional homelands of the Ithilien District and crossed the river to Osgiliath, where cheering crowds welcome them as liberators. The Dark Lord himself has issued edicts annexing Ithilien and Osgiliath as forever part of Mordor, declaring that any moves to retake them by the fascist Gondoran rabble of Minas Tirith will be met with crushing force and the direct action of The Nine. In the White Tower, the Steward's office has put out a statement saying that when Boromir returns from his secret mission, he will put everything to rights. Denethor's other Son Faramir is still away on unknown business. Conservatives at council claim underhanded business dealings with criminal networks in Osgiliath. In other news, the war in Far Harad has reached six months of intense fighting between the Khanate and rebellious forces. Negotiations for the return of hostages taken by the rebels are not going well, with the rebels taking refuge in tunnels carved out under the city and under schools and healing centers. In the North, support for Gondor in its fight against the overwhelming numerical superiority of Mordor has been tested of late, with the old alliance between the Dwarves of Erebor, the Men of Laketown, and the Elves of Mirkwood strained at best. Emissaries of Mordor have been seen visiting each of the Alliance headquarters and are recommending delay or outright refusal of aid. Further West, Theoden, King of Rohan has issued an edict through his spokesman Wormtongue declaring the entire Westfold as tribute lands to Saruman. Theoden's son Theodred is missing, and Eomer has been banned from court for publicly disagreeing with the edict and threatening Wormtongue in court. Meanwhile Saruman has declared that if he is put in charge of the West, the war with Mordor would end overnight. He would simply pressure Gondor to give up Osgiliath and Ithilien as fiefdoms to Mordor, and Sauron has given his word to stop advancing his forces, so that many lives could be saved. Further West in Arnor, wargpacks have been raiding among the Beornings, and Goblins have been seen streaming from the Misty Mountains, still livid over the death of the Great Goblin years ago. Messengers from Khazadh-Dum have reached Barad-Dur with news that the meddling wizard known as Gandalf has been killed trying to spy on the doings of the goblins in Moria. We requested statements concerning the above mentioned developments from Queen Galadriel of the Golden Wood, from King Thranduil of Greenwood The Great, and from Master Elrond of Imladris, but received only "no comment" in response. This has been Faux News, your leading source of fair and impartial information in a confusing world.

OK folks, this is way too "political," thinly veiled, but neither the intent of the Thread, nor consistent with our 'rules'.
How 'bout we stop it here, before it gets any worse?
And, if you see some of the above posts just sorta 'vanish' from the site, don't be surprised.
We'll have a chat about that.
Thanks.

Ah, but Old Ent, the last post but one illustrates my conten tion that Middle Earth is NOT like the real earth at all and why I would so like to go there.

If a topic can be discussed without all the inference, allusion and allegory, rubbing up against the present day condition with thinly veiled references, potentially frustrating for some, we have no problem with that.

But that's not how the last post but two (and some preceding it) are being handled.

The subject is a difficult one, but if we keep Middle-earth the prime focus, and share how it may be similar to or differ from the present day,I think we can have a reasonable discussion consistent with the Site and Thread's intent.

But it can't (and won't) become a platform for political allegory rather than meaningful discussion. (So says Ent - without furthier discussion with Mods.)

Good for you!

In about 12 minutes Tilion will be catching up with Arien. I'll be watching the 2.5-hour duration of their rendezvous using my special glasses.

A few mintues ago from my front deck...

Some posts have been edited. I invite all members to refamiliarize themselves with the Rules thread -- particularly the Politics rule:

I have been reading BRAIDING SWEETGRASS by Robin Wall Kimmerer. Highly recommended! She is Native American, originally of the Northeastern tribes around Lake Onondaga. Among the very interesting topics she discusses is language. The idea is that the language one speaks has a great deal to do with how one's mind is organized to THINK. Apparently, the vocabulary of English (and all Indo-European language groups) is about 75% nouns, such that most sentences involve the concept of THINGS... or objects. But in many indigenous tongues of North America this relationship is flipped, such that 75% of the vocabulary is verbs such that almost everything is discussed in the context of a "doing" rather than a "being". For example, "river" in English is clearly a noun referring to a flowing body of water. But in at least one Native American language it is always referred to by the verb meaning "being a river". The word itself then conveys a dynamic that is not found in the English word, and that conveys into the very way one would THINK about "being a river", a connection that an English speaker might struggle to perceive but that would be completely obvious to the speaker of the native tongue. I corresponded for a time with a Lakota medicine man who was intensely interested in Tolkien, and particularly in the Hobbits. He explained (or TRIED to explain) that he grew up speaking Lakota and did not learn English until he attended government schools at age ten. He says he still thinks in Lakota and translates to English to speak with non-Lakota. (He lives in Tucson). He said that there are things that are very simple to say with a few words in Lakota, but it would take him hours to try to explain in English.
Probably the best feature (in my view) of the new Rings of Power series was their treatment of the progenitors of the Hobbits. They are treated as indigenous folk, tied so closely to the land that they can virtually disappear at will. And when, later, the Hobbits come to inhabit The Shire and establish a homeland instead of a wandering lifestyle, they retain much of their nomadic ways in their choices of dwellings and lifestyles. And so now I wonder about the language they speak. The book of symbols carried by the chieftain was VERY interesting! Now we know that Tolkien was a professional linguist, and he devised Elvish as a way to purge Western tongues of pernicious features that had evolved over the millennia. In the inscriptions on Shire coinage, engraver Greg Franck-Weiby envisioned a Hobbit language he called Kuduk that was spoken among themselves and was different from the lingua Franca "Westron" spoken by the dwarves and Big Men with whom the Hobbits made commerce. While Greg and I made no effort to develop Kuduk beyond the few simple phrases that would be necessary for inscriptions on coins or postage stamps, I think that they perhaps had a more verb-based vocabulary in consonance with the knowledge we now have of other indigenous cultures, and the way such cultures understand the nature and meaning of the so-called "real-world".
It is this buried wisdom of Tolkien that I seek to exhume from the extant writings we have. This may sound sacrilegious to some, but the stories mean NOTHING unless we are able to take meaning from them to incorporate into our own characters, in our own times and places. Elves are stuffy, Dwarves are haughty, Men are weak, gobilins are bad, but Hobbits are forever.