Middle E(ngland)arth

[Eledhwen]

For me Ancient Europe - (8000 BC - AD 1000) Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World has proven an invaluable piece of information about those pre-literate times in Europe....

I did a search on Amazon, and it came up with "Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples, 8000 BC to AD 1500" instead. Where can I get one (assuming it's in English, that is!)

 

[Walter]

Yes it is in English...

I bought my copy at the "Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft Darmstadt" (a German scientific bookstore that has some English titles as well). You could try this link (but be warned it is huge, heavy and not quite cheap)...

 

[Eledhwen]

(be warned it is huge, heavy and not quite cheap)...

Understatement of the year! At least there are two volumes, so it feels like you get two books. This isn't a good time for me to be spending £200 on a book.

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

 

[scotsboyuk]

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

They are both objects of a quest. They are both magical items. They are both only able to be handled by certain people. They are both hidden for long periods of time. They are both derived from divine sources.

Good and evil are often perspectives, both the Grail and the One Ring can be used for good and evil.

 

[Ingwë]

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

Eledhwen, indeed there are relation between the Grial and the One Ring. I found such thread in other Tolkien forum, but it is in Bulgarian: http://bgtolkienforum.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=886
I will try finding the information in English. It is very interesting.

 

[Eledhwen]

What a pretty forum! And such long posts - a pity I don't understand a word of it. I did recognise the forum members though; so why don't they all just post all that stuff here in English (a bit each shouldn't be too much trouble) and enlighten me.

 

[scotsboyuk]

@Eledhwen

What exactly is it that you wish to know?

 

[Ingwë]

What a pretty forum! And such long posts - a pity I don't understand a word of it. I did recognise the forum members though; so why don't they all just post all that stuff here in English (a bit each shouldn't be too much trouble) and enlighten me.

Well, Eledhwen, they aren't members of TTF. There are good Tolkienologist there but they don't visit other forums. I don't know why...
Anyway, I send PM to the author of the thread so I hope he will give me a link to an English site.

 

[Eledhwen]

@Eledhwen

What exactly is it that you wish to know?

Only what all those excellent insights are on the Bulgarian Tolkien Forum.

 

[Walter]

Understatement of the year! At least there are two volumes, so it feels like you get two books. This isn't a good time for me to be spending £200 on a book.

Is there ever a good time to spend £200 on a book? (Well I bought it anyway...)

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

Well, both items got lost and remained hidden over extended periods of time...

And I don't even dare mentioning the Swan and Lohengrin...

 

[Eledhwen]

They are both objects of a quest. They are both magical items. They are both only able to be handled by certain people. They are both hidden for long periods of time. They are both derived from divine sources.

Good and evil are often perspectives, both the Grail and the One Ring can be used for good and evil.

So we're talking about the legend of the Holy Grail, not the known historical item (as in Indiana Jones and...)

 

[scotsboyuk]

@Eledhwen

The two are intrinsically linked now. If the Holy Grail is indeed the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper then it stands to reason that it did exist at some point and may still do.

Where the Grail becomes complicated is in the fact that many different theories exist as to what it could have been (or still is as the case may be). These theories range from the afore mentioned drinking cup to a lost bloodline to an ancient Celtic magic cauldron.

The legend of the Grail is similar to legends found in other cultures, where a hero would journey far and face many dangers to obtain a magical item e.g. the Golden Fleece.

Part of these legends is that to obtain such items the person on the quest usually has to be a great hero or pure in some way. As I've commented before, this ties in with the One Ring and the concept of Frodo being resistant to its power.

 

[Eledhwen]

Where the Grail becomes complicated is in the fact that many different theories exist as to what it could have been (or still is as the case may be). These theories range from the afore mentioned drinking cup to a lost bloodline to an ancient Celtic magic cauldron.

Like Arthurian legend, the coming together of many myths. I like your comparison of the Grail and the Ring; Tolkien too was influenced by the myths and legends he had encountered.

 

[Alatar]

Tolkien was definitly influenced by other legends. The dwarfs in Mythology, are scared of light, evil, live under ground, love gold, and are well... short.
These fit nicely into good and evil, Orcs are scared of light, evil, live under ground, and Dwarves live under ground, love gold, and are well... short.
The same for Odin cutting down to Sauron and Gandalf, each takes some from him. Tolkien said Gandalf was Odinic.

 

[clashoftheash]

who were conquered by Christian forces adopted that religion

A lot of them adopted it well before there were any christian forces conquering anyone. Ireland became a haven of education, wealth and a refuge for scholars dring the middle ages.

people would have been much better off with their original religion — Druidism

At the time there was no religion called druidism. There was druids who held a high position as advisors and keepers of the law to the rí (king). The Celts/Gaels never wrote anything down because they felt it would be "writing it in stone" and things have to change. So the druids spent 13 years learning everything from older druids who learned it before them.

Because of this we know so little about the religion that was practised. There are people who call themselves "druids" today and they probably believe it themselves but whatever they practice as religion has no baring to what was actually practised by the Gaels.

at the troubles in Ireland for instance: all the hell between the Catholics and the Protestants — such an appalling shame

They're not fighting over religion. Religion has very little to do with it. Its simply the general division of the lines. Most Catholics are nationalist, most Unionists are Protestant.

No one actually cares what religion they are, most of them wouldn't even know the difference between the two religions. Its simply an "Us" vs "them" Situation where you can generally identify "them" as being Catholic/Protestant.

 

[scotsboyuk]

A lot of them adopted it well before there were any christian forces conquering anyone. Ireland became a haven of education, wealth and a refuge for scholars dring the middle ages.

That is more true of Ireland than Great Britain though. The Romans first introduced Christianity to Britain, but of course it declined under the Germanic invasions. The pattern of religious conversion in Great Britain, especially England, is one of persuasion and politics. The thing we must remember though is that the conversion process didn't happen over night. There is evidence to suggest that Christianity existed alongside paganism in certain cases, with the individuals involved seemingly committed to both.

This isn't all that strange when one realises that many pagans would have approached Christianity from a pagan perspective i.e. Christ was another god to add to their pantheon.

 

[Rivendell_librarian]

Well no but living where i do its imopossible not to think about the shire.I have been told (no deffinent sorces though)Tolkein wrote some of LotR near a forest called cannock chase in staffordshire . I can see that forest though my widow. I love living in the shire.

Apparently there is a tree in Cannock Chase that may have been the inspiration for Ents and Treebeard - so "Treebeard's alive"
with apologies to Brian Blessed