Mortals in the Undying Lands?

Turin · Feb 12, 2003

Sam was already pretty old when he passed across the sea so he didn't have much time to enjoy paradice.

Aulë · Feb 12, 2003

Even more so for Bilbo.

I doubt that he would have lasted out the year.

Ithrynluin · Feb 12, 2003

Bilbo did bear the ring for an awfully long time, so I doubt he would die that soon. IMO he had another decade of life before him - at least.

Mimzy · Feb 11, 2011

I think they probably have an extended life, like the Numenoreans did (maybe physically being further West/closer to the Valar makes a mortal live longer?) but they definitely didn't become Elves.

Zenith · May 18, 2011

Niniel said:
Yes, they are still mortal. They can be healed of all their hurts and weariness (this goes for Frodo especially) and enjoy the Undying Lands, but they still die when it's their time. So I have been wondering if Frodo was still alive when Sam came... maybe they met again, but maybe Frodo had already died. That would be kinda sad

Actually I think that they become immortal. Let us look at the facts. The Valar were afraid the Numenoreans would overthrow Valinor and break the Ban, thus becoming immortal. They had to call upon Eru. However, there is even more concrete evidence. Tuor, the man, built for himself a ship and sailed into the west. And in the Silmarillion it says he came to the shores of Valinor, and alone of mortal men, was numbered among the Eldar. So if Tuor became immortal, how can you say the Ringbearers and Gimli don't become immortal?

Elthir · May 18, 2011

There are possible exceptions, but Frodo was not one of them. As already noted in the thread, for instance...

And much later, in a draft letter of 1963 (Letters no. 246), he [Tolkien] wrote:

'Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.'

The Valar did not fear the Numenoreans becoming immortal. Aman was the land of 'immortals' but the land did not confer immortality upon mortals; not even the limited immortality of the Elves.

HLGStrider · May 18, 2011

The Numenoreans were simply under the delusion that it would make them immortal, mainly, I believe, because Sauron told them it would when he had the king's ear. It's like how the snake in the Bible told Eve that eating of the fruit would make her "like God" when really it did nothing of the sort.

Zenith · May 19, 2011

Okay HLGStrider, I don't know what Bible you have been reading, but Adam and Eve did become like God, knowing good and evil. It even says in Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 22: "and the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

HLGStrider · May 19, 2011

You are correct. I guess it has just been awhile since I've read Genesis. What I meant by it, though, was that I'm pretty sure Eve did not think being "like God" would be like that. She didn't become immortal or omnipotent or even all knowing. She just learned the knowledge of good and evil. It would be like someone saying he could sell you a pill that will make you like your favorite athlete and have the pill be a plastic canister that contains a matching jersey. Only one very small aspect of "like." In that way it was a deception.

Bard the Bowman · Jun 12, 2011

What about Tuor? Did he become one of the Eldar or was that just speculation?

Withywindle · Jun 29, 2011

The point about Tuor is an excellent one and contradicts everything Tolkien later said about mortals' not being able to perdure in the temporal sphere.

Peeping-Tom · Jun 29, 2011

In my opinion, everything told (...or written) about mortals in the Undying Lands is pure speculating in making happy-ends to harsh stories. No mortals have ever talked to other mortals that have visited the Undying Lands... not even Beren, who never spoke to another human after he returned to Middle-Earth. We simply have no real proofs of, what happened to all the mortals leaving to the west (Tour, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli). The only one who could have supplied facts, the Gondolin/Imladris elf, Glorfindel, never spoke of his time in the Undying Lands.

Elthir · Jun 29, 2011

Tolkien speaking to exceptions doesn't topple the rule for me -- I think there is plenty of evidence (even if story-external) that mortals do not normally become 'immortal' in the West, a major point of the Numenorean story I would say.

Bard the Bowman · Jun 30, 2011

Tolkien speaking to exceptions doesn't topple the rule for me -- I think there is plenty of evidence (even if story-external) that mortals do not normally become 'immortal' in the West, a major point of the Numenorean story I would say.

How do you explain Tuor then if there are no exceptions?

HLGStrider · Jun 30, 2011

He didn't say there were no exceptions. He said that the exceptions didn't change the general rule that mortals do not "normally" become immortal . . . which in itself implies that they do sometimes, it just isn't "normal."

Bard the Bowman · Jun 30, 2011

Well the fact that we call them "exceptions" means we concede to the idea that it is a "rule", so I'm not sure what the point is of that statement.

HLGStrider · Jun 30, 2011

His point was
A. There is plenty of evidence that mortals don't become immortal just because they reach the East
B. One noted exception does not totally topple the rule and mean that everyone who reaches the East becomes immortal.

For instance, if we were discussing people going over the Niagara Falls in barrels and someone said as a rule it is fatal to do so, the fact that one or two people have done it and live does not overrule the general rule that going over Niagara Falls in a barrel will kill you.

Mimzy · Jun 30, 2011

Withywindle said:
The point about Tuor is an excellent one and contradicts everything Tolkien later said about mortals' not being able to perdure in the temporal sphere.

I don't think him going to Valinor is what gave him the Gift of the Elves ... I think Iluvatar Himself imbued the gift to him ... even if Tuor and Idril wanted to live in Middle-earth instead they would still be immortal (though they would 'fade').

Elthir · Jun 30, 2011

Mimzy in my opinion that's nicely in accord with Tolkien about Tuor and Eru:

'Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon king of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality' (...) Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be affected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.'

JRRT, letter 153 (draft)

Withywindle · Jul 12, 2011

But talking of special cases, surely mortlas who have worn a ring of power are special cases. LOTR states that this gave them the right to go to the West, but isn't it more than that?

Putting on a ring of power alows a mortal to do something Eru never intended - enter the world of spirits. Elves it seems inhabit temporal and spiritual realities simultaneously as indeed the physical world is also their spiritual home, whereas mortals are supposed to be just physical entities until they die, and they become spirits outside of the world, in the halls of Eru.

But when amortal puts on a ring of power he becomes part of the spiritual world and just as he can perceive that world, other beings also perceive his spirit. This fact breaks Eru's laws. Now we might muse that those few mortals who put on a ring of power and survived - Bilbo, Frodo and Sam may de facto have lost the so called Gift of Iluvatar and have become elven like without the need for any authority to pass judgement.

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