My God, It Was Horrible (Part III)

[Mrs. Maggott]

I remember no such dialogue (though I have only seen the movie twice, the last time a few weeks ago). I think I would have noticed it, but who knows mayb I did miss it. It is possible that Frodo says to Sam that it feels like years, but this is hugely different. I may see the film again this weekend. I will watch for this alleged dialogue.

This is an example of what I have pointed out before: the danger of making judgements based on second-hand reports and the tendency of some "purists" to automatically accept any negative report of the films.

I am not making a judgment vis a vie someone else's post, but frankly, my "faith" in Jackson is such that nothing much would surprise me at this point so I did not feel altogether astonished by someone making that point. Whether it was actually said or not is beside the point but the fact that I do not immediately dismiss it as impossible should indicate how wary I am of Mr. Jackson's interpretations.

Nonetheless, the FADs should be happy since my post about the beacons is a positive one. I think that it is probably cinematically very dramatic and should not have been foregone simply because it fails to take into account a rather esoteric point in the story. If Mr. Jackson had limited his "inventions" to things like this, I don't know if there would be any "debates" on the films!

 

[Greenwood]

After all, given that someone posted that a scene in ROTR has Frodo telling Sam (or vice-versa) that they had been journeying for years(!) rather than months, I would say that the beacon situation (vis a vie accuracy) is by this time moot!

and

I am not making a judgment vis a vie someone else's post, but frankly, my "faith" in Jackson is such that nothing much would surprise me at this point so I did not feel altogether astonished by someone making that point. Whether it was actually said or not is beside the point but the fact that I do not immediately dismiss it as impossible should indicate how wary I am of Mr. Jackson's interpretations.

I am at a loss as to how the first post is "not making a judgment vis a vie someone else's post". The clear implication is that accuracy cannot be expected since Jackson gets something as wildly wrong as stating a journey of months took years and the only evidence that Jackson made such an error is that someone posted it. You don't know whether it is true or not, but you automatically accept it as true. (Please note: I am not saying it is true or not, only that I don't remember it and therefore I doubt it.)

I do like how the second part of your sentence above ("frankly, my "faith" in Jackson is such that nothing much would surprise me at this point so I did not feel altogether astonished by someone making that point") makes it Jackson's fault that you have such a negative bias that you will uncritically accept any negative report you hear about.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

You are putting the cart before the horse. I have enough experience with Mr. Jackson (two films and their EEs) to not be surprised by any invention he may make including having the Quest a few years long. Do I have a "bias against" him? Frankly, yes. I am quite willing to believe the worst unless I have first hand knowledge otherwise. But I do not apologize for that fact. After all, the man earned it.

 

[Greenwood]

You are putting the cart before the horse. I have enough experience with Mr. Jackson (two films and their EEs) to not be surprised by any invention he may make including having the Quest a few years long. Do I have a "bias against" him? Frankly, yes. I am quite willing to believe the worst unless I have first hand knowledge otherwise. But I do not apologize for that fact. After all, the man earned it.

As long as the bias is acknowledged.

And given the acknowledgement of a bias it certainly taints any opinions expressed by a biased person on the subject of something they have no first hand knowledge of, be it Venus or a movie.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

As long as the bias is acknowledged.

And given the acknowledgement of a bias it certainly taints any opinions expressed by a biased person on the subject of something they have no first hand knowledge of, be it Venus or a movie.

That is, of course, just plain silly!

I have admitted that I will tend to believe the worst of Mr. Jackson if accused based upon past evidence of his ability to produce very much the worst in some circumstances. However, I will reserve my final opinion until I can be absolutely sure of my source (such as my daughter) and even then, such things are open to interpretation. Naturally, I would prefer to see - and judge - it myself.

However, my general opinion of Mr. Jackson doesn't mean that I cannot admit when he is right (which he has been especially in the visuals), nor does it mean that I will accept without proof something patently ridiculous (such as the final film is in black and white). There is a difference between believing that Jackson is capable of some egregious deviation from the original story and believing anything that is said of him without first-hand knowledge.

Furthermore, I at least am honest in my appraisal of Jackson. I make no claim to "neutrality" in the matter. But that does not render my judgment null and void for I am also honest enough to admit when Jackson does well. Indeed, I would say that my judgment is sound since, frankly, there are very few people on the forum who could be considered entirely "neutral" in this matter. Therefore, if you are going to discount my comments because of my openly stated position, then I would suggest that those on the other side of the issue should be equally discounted in what they have to say.

Or, conversely, as long as what is said is not factually erroneous then both sides should be considered to have something worthwhile to impart.

 

[Greenwood]

Therefore, if you are going to discount my comments because of my openly stated position, then I would suggest that those on the other side of the issue should be equally discounted in what they have to say.

If I find anyone praising the movie when they have not seen it, because they saw the first two and thus they know how good it is going to be and what second-hand reports they can accept, I will point out their bias and the taint it gives their opinions. I figure I will be able to spot them by their habit of agreeing with and praising Jackson on the basis of every laudatory comment made by people who have actually seen the movie. So far I have not encountered anyone fitting that description.

 

[joxy]

Greenwood: We share an interest in words, and probably in logic, but I'm afraid that last one of yours is too labyrinthine for me.
IF it implies that there are people who do the reverse of praising the WHOLE of ROTK, not having seen it, but relying on factual details reported by others, then I have to say I haven't seen any such people, and I'd happily go out on a limb and say they don't and never will exist. Those who DO exist are the ones who criticise the PARTS they've been told about in reports which they trust.
Maybe it doesn't imply that, though.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Yes, I have not seen the entire film. However, I have seen many trailers and stills as well as seen and perused various interviews which partain to it. Furthermore, I have the "eye-witness" reports of those who have seen the film, many of whom post on this forum. When one adds to that my knowledge of the two past films and what about them I did not like (such as Jackson's character interpretations), then I should think that I am not entirely "in the dark" when I make some comment about the film! Certainly, I am not making an overall judgment, but I am making comments about some of what has been posted here and some of what I have asked those whose judgment I trust.

Let me give you a "for instance": this morning I spoke with my daughter, a Tolkien afficianado who has seen the film and I asked her two questions: [1] was there a "great darkness" as there had been in the book before the Battle of the Pelannor? Someone posted on this or another forum that they "missed" that element of the story in the film. She advised that there had not been a "great darkness". Then I asked her if the wildmen had been present and led the force of King Theoden through the woods to the edge of the Pelannor to avoid the orcs who were guarding the road to Rohan as they had done in the book. She thought for a moment and advised that she could not remember any such thing in the film. Then I asked the "killer question": if in fact there was neither darkness nor wild men to lead the Rohirrim in secrecy to the battlefield, how were they able to get there without being seen and attacked? She said that she did not know but mentioned that they just "got there". "Ah," I said. "You mean the same way the Battle of Helm's Deep was being won by the thousands of orcs and suddenly 'we win'?!" "Yes," she responded, "Something like that." But, she also noted, so much was going on that you really didn't notice that the army of Rohan was able to arrive at the battle without anyone noticing them till they got there. Oh. Well. Of course.....

You see? One really doesn't have to "see" Mr. Jackson to know pretty much what he's going to do. I had a suspicion that the battle was just going to "happen" without there being much of a preamble helping the inevitable victory make sense, but since I hadn't actually seen it, I refrained from mentioning the matter. However, my daughter's report only confirms what I already believed to be the case.

Does this "ruin" the film for me? Hardly. I shall eventually see it and (for the sake of the whole set) purchase the EE, but frankly I already knew enough about what had already transpired not to be surprised by whatever will transpire.

 

[drjekil_bg]

hi,i like the movie trilogy.its was awesome for me,but there were some changes in the third movie i didnt undestand:

Frodo and Same legendary scene(i red almost everything writen about it but i still didnt get why Sam leave)
What the hell was this with Arwen,and why we didnt see the sons of Elrond
Where were the dunedans(Aragon is a dudedan)(i am from bulgaria and i am not sure about the spelling of some words)
How did Sam found the way out of the Shelob's lair
Where was the Darkness
The eye trick of Sauron(i read about it as well but i still didnt get the answer)

Inspite of those things the movie rock and for all who still that Minas Tirith is with 6 level-its with 7,count them again.And there is not ground floot how some said

 

[aragil]

MM, since your daughter does not appear to be entirely reliable on this (no offence intended), allow me to fill you in with something that puts the film in a more positive light:

1) The darkness is there- it is alluded to in the second scene of the movie by Sam and Frodo. Nobody mentions it in Gondor, but there is not a single straight sunlight shot in the city until after the siege. Also, the clouds obviously break as the Rohirrim arrive- there is a wide (and I mean very wide) shot which shows the whole of the Pelannor field- the city and the immediately surrounding area are in darkness, while the Rohirrim are in sunlight- this sunlight later spreads out to the whole of the battlefield.

2) The Wildmen were not present in the theatrical release, but an actor has been credited for the role of Ghan-buri-ghan, so there is hope that this element will appear in the Extended Edition. But this is hardly important, because ...

3) In the books the Wildmen are required because there is another Mordorian army which has invaded Anorien from Cair Andros, thus separating Rohan from Gondor. The Rohirrim could have fought and possibly beaten this, but they would have lost valuable time and man-power, so it was preferable to go around. Since this Northern branch of the Mordor army is not mentioned in the movie, it does NOT matter that the Wildmen are not present. The Mordor army which has been sent against Minas Tirith is quite compact and in anycase engaged with the city- there are none left to hinder the Rohirrim in their ride, even if the darkness was not there (which it is).

Hope that helps with your enjoyment of the movie. Other positive rumors can be found at Thorin's review (yes, an avowed purist who said he enjoyed the third movie the best of the three): http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14293
Or here where 2/3 of the membership of these boards said that the third movie was the best of the three: http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14292
Or here where the membership votes on the quality of the film (currently 82 of the 95 votes are for either "I am completely speechless due to its glory", "Extremely Impressive", or "Great movie". 9 of the votes are for "Alright, but not the best movie I've seen", while only 4 of the 95 say it was either "Boring" or a "Complete waste of my time and money"): http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14280

So there you have it- hope you're not against taking the good with the bad. I'd recommend seeing it soon- lines are getting short, and you're missing quite a treat!

{Edited in order to make sense}

 

[Greenwood]

Mrs. Maggott,

Just got in from seeing ROTK for third time. Aragil has done a good job of answering your comments about the darkness, Wildmen, etc. As he said there is no need for the Wildmen in the movie because nothing is ever said about a need for the Rohirrim to get to the battle by a secret way. Yes,the Rohirrim "just arrive" and their arrival is quite dramatic. In fact, I would say I found the Rohirrim's arrival and initial charge one of the most spectacular and moving scenes in the movie. To get back to your comments, they prove my point as to how your bias against Jackson and the movies leads you to accept (or in this case make up) unfounded criticisms of the film when you haven't seen the film. If you had seen the film you would know that there was no need (in the film) for the Rohirrim to find a secret way to the battlefield.

As for the report that you so uncritically (or should I say critically ) accepted of a scene with Sam and Frodo refering to the journey taking years ......... it never happened! Not there, period. Nothing even like it. In fact at the end of the movie when the hobbits return to the Shire Frodo says it is 13 months to the day since they left.

 

[joxy]

Since this Northern branch of the Mordor army is not mentioned in the movie, it does matter that the Wildmen are not present.

Or it does not matter?

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Mrs. Maggott,

Just got in from seeing ROTK for third time. Aragil has done a good job of answering your comments about the darkness, Wildmen, etc. As he said there is no need for the Wildmen in the movie because nothing is ever said about a need for the Rohirrim to get to the battle by a secret way. Yes,the Rohirrim "just arrive" and their arrival is quite dramatic. In fact, I would say I found the Rohirrim's arrival and initial charge one of the most spectacular and moving scenes in the movie. To get back to your comments, they prove my point as to how your bias against Jackson and the movies leads you to accept (or in this case make up) unfounded criticisms of the film when you haven't seen the film. If you had seen the film you would know that there was no need (in the film) for the Rohirrim to find a secret way to the battlefield.

As for the report that you so uncritically (or should I say critically ) accepted of a scene with Sam and Frodo refering to the journey taking years ......... it never happened! Not there, period. Nothing even like it. In fact at the end of the movie when the hobbits return to the Shire Frodo says it is 13 months to the day since they left.

First (or last) as far as the "time" scenario is concerned: I merely responded to something that was posted by someone who was purported to have seen the film. I did not say that what the poster said was "so" or "not so", but again, I had no reason to doubt the post especially given that Jackson has been known to pull fairly big "boo-boos".

Secondly, I hardly consider my daughter's answer to my direct question to be "unfounded" nor was it a criticism on her part, merely the answer to a direct question: was this present and did this happen. You may enjoy the matter as it was presented, but to me, the real drama of that particular part of the story was the enemy's darkness and the arrival of the Rohirrim under its cover which gives way during their charge. For not with all the money and technology at his disposal, could Jackson have bettered the following:

"Now silently the host of Rohan moved forward into the field of Gondor, pouring in slowly but steadily, like the rising tide through breaches in a dike that men have thought secure. But the mind and will of the Black Captain were bent wholly on the falling city, and as yet no tidings came to him warning that his designs held any flaw.

After a while the king led his men away somewhat eastward, to come between the fires of the siege and the outer fields. Still they were unchallenged, and still Theoden gave no signal. At last he halted once again. The city was now nearer. A smell of burning was in the air and a very shadow of death. The horses were uneasy. But the king sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Merry hiimself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late! To late was worse than never! Perhaps Theoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills.

Then suddenly Merry felt it at last, beyond a doubt: a change. Wind was in his face! Light was glimmering. Far, Far away, in the South the clouds could be dimly seen as remote grey shapes, rolling up, drifting: morning lay beyond them.*

But at that same moment, there was a flash, as if lightening had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle; and the as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.

At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before:

'Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!'

With that he seized a great horn from Guthlaf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightaway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plan and a thunder in the mountains.

'Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!'

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speeed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.* And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City." [The Ride of the Rohirrim, The Return of the King, Lord of the Rings]
(*my emphasis)

Maybe some might find the film equal to the prose, but the only way that I would give it a prayer of being even half as good would be if Jackson had followed Tolkien's description of the charge scrupulously - and we know he didn't do that! Therefore, good as the film might be (and I'm sure that it is!) I am confident in saying it cannot hold a candle to the book even if I never see it!

 

[aragil]

Maybe some might find the film equal to the prose, but the only way that I would give it a prayer of being even half as good would be if Jackson had followed Tolkien's description of the charge scrupulously - and we know he didn't do that! Therefore, good as the film might be (and I'm sure that it is!) I am confident in saying it cannot hold a candle to the book even if I never see it!

Wow. The charge of the Rohirrim was probably the most stirring moment I've seen in a film, ever. It actually follows the books. I'm amazed that you can say these things without having seen the film.

 

[Rhiannon]

*raises hand* I'm on record as thinking the charge could have been done better in the film. They kept stopping...it was weird.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Wow. The charge of the Rohirrim was probably the most stirring moment I've seen in a film, ever. It actually follows the books. I'm amazed that you can say these things without having seen the film.

Ah! Then I have been misinformed!

The darkness was there to be broken as the charge took place with the grass flamed into color by the rising sun's reflection on the massed shields of the Riders!

And the Riders did arrive by stealth, creeping into the darkened battlefield just as Tolkien described!

And Theoden spoke the words that Tolkien wrote (as written in my post) and not some mish-mash of dialogue spoken either by other characters or at other times in the book!

And the song of the Rohirrim as they slaughtered the fleeing forces of Mordor blinded by the newly released light did carry to the City!

Oh, good! I'm glad! I was so afraid that it wouldn't be presented like that but as just another "recreation" by Mr. Jackson!

That is what you mean, isn't it? Or is it! Because if this scene in the film is not at least mostly as written in the book, then it is not going to please me no matter how "stirring" it may be. And, yes, I CAN say that "without seeing it" because the ultimate source of that which I will (and won't) like is, of course, me!

 

[aragil]

The darkness was there to be broken as the charge took place with the grass flamed into color by the rising sun's reflection on the massed shields of the Riders!

I didn't see it necessarily reflecting off the shields of the Riders, but definitely off of their armor. It actually gives an otherworldly feel to them, lit up as they are, charging down to the darkness surrounding the city.

And the Riders did arrive by stealth, creeping into the darkened battlefield just as Tolkien described!

We don't see any of their journey- we hear them announce their arrival by sounding their horns, just like in the book.

And Theoden spoke the words that Tolkien wrote (as written in my post) and not some mish-mash of dialogue spoken either by other characters or at other times in the book!

You might not be so pleased here. Theoden says some of these words, others are said before by Eomer. And the final song is the 'Death' charge that comes in the books after Theoden and Eowyn are left for dead.

And the song of the Rohirrim as they slaughtered the fleeing forces of Mordor blinded by the newly released light did carry to the City!

We don't know- we don't get any shots from within the city after the Rohirrim arrive.

Oh, good! I'm glad! I was so afraid that it wouldn't be presented like that but as just another "recreation" by Mr. Jackson!

Your enduring faith is as a beacon to the rest of us, lighting our way when all else seems dark.

That is what you mean, isn't it? Or is it! Because if this scene in the film is not at least mostly as written in the book, then it is not going to please me no matter how "stirring" it may be. And, yes, I CAN say that "without seeing it" because the ultimate source of that which I will (and won't) like is, of course, me!

I have not read of anyone who is displeased with the scene, although there is a first time for everything. It (IMO) exactly captures the scene from the books, which I am reminded is one of the 3 stirring moments of the whole work that still gave Tolkien pleasure after he wrote it. OF course, we won't know how you feel about the scene until after you've seen it. I might point out (and it has been said before) that you make it very difficult on yourself to enjoy such scenes by being so sarcastic towards them before seeing them. Do yourself a favor- go see the movie. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But you might be surprised (and I think you will be).

 

[Rhiannon]

I have not read of anyone who is displeased with the scene, although there is a first time for everything.

*waves arms, jumping up and down* Hello! Me! What am I, chopped liver? I was displeased!

 

[Greenwood]

Aragil,

I agree. The arrival and charge of Theoden and the Rohirrim was one of the most stirring moments I can remember from any film. As a fan of classic films, I have always loved Errol Flynn's cavalry charge in the "Charge of the Light Brigade" (now there is a film that took liberties with history -- but who cared), but Rohan's charge will live in cinema history for at least as long.

Mrs. Maggott,

I have no doubt you will not be disappointed. You will thoroughly enjoy yourself grumbling about every scene and come away saying: "I knew he would mess it up." I hope you don't deny yourself the pleasure. Think of how many more things you can tell us were wrong once you have actually seen the film.

 

[Ol'gaffer]

*waves arms, jumping up and down* Hello! Me! What am I, chopped liver? I was displeased!

did the liver just speak?