💀Nazgul and the 9 Rings

[Noldor_returned]

Interesting point, although I thought it did say all perished, save those who fled the island or were living in Middle-Earth? Otherwise, the answer would be no. Unless of course, it's one of those Tolkien things, where he died, but didn't really die because he was a Nazgul?
Then again, it's even more unlikely, because then Sauron would have had a Nazgul in the first War of the Ring, and I'm sure there would have been mention of that if he did.

 

[HLGStrider]

Somehow I thought Ar-Pharazon was one of those condemned to the Caves of the Forgotten to wait until the last battle. My phrasing is off because I don't have my books, or am I confusing my kings?

 

[Thorondor_]

Are we told of the fate of Ar-Pharazon the Golden?

Yes:

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

.

 

[HLGStrider]

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14457

So, no Ar-Pharazon couldn't be the witch king.

 

[Noldor_returned]

The name Witch-king implies that he had some sort of special powers, I think. Why else would he be called a witch? So Sauron saw his potential, recruited him and he had what used to be some sort of Witch-doctor thing. However, the transformation into the wraith world caused the Witch-king to lose his powers. These are all just theories and guesses.
Then again, his name might have come from the powers a Nazgul had, and been first used by his armies in Angmar. Something similar to Sharkey/Saruman, and the name was used in reverence by the common warriors. Then the name stuck. Once again, all just guesses and theories.

So what does this mean? I doubt the actual identity of the Witch-king will be revealed, unless something that I've forgotten about Angmar is in UT, Sil, LOTR appendixes or HOME (I've never read HOME, and does anyone know where I can get a copy?).

 

[HLGStrider]

I always assumed 'Witch King" was a title earned after he was Wraithized. I don't know if there is any proof of this, however, and as they had the 9 Rings prior to being Wraithized, the rings could have given them power that would have been considered "witchcraft" by those unaware of its true source.

 

[Thorondor_]

A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear

And in HoME & The treason of Isengard, he is called the greatest wizard of Men:

Then my heart failed for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no ' power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them

that is, if we interpret "of old" as meaning before the nazgul-event .

 

[Noldor_returned]

If he was a king, who was he king of? We agreed it isn't Ar-Pharazon (buried in those cave thingys), but who else? As fas as I remember, no other king went missing, and details of their deaths are given. So maybe he assumed the title king, although he had no right to.

 

[HLGStrider]

Like I said, I doubt we are talking of a direct king of Numenor/Gondor or even Rohan/Dale.

Even before the destruction of the isle, Numenor had colonies on the main land of Middle Earth. Some of these probably had a great deal of independence. In the aftermath of the sinking of the isle, I imagine many former lords took upon themselves the title king and ruled as such. As they were Numenorean, a longer lifespan probably went at first unnoticed, especially if attributed to a certain amount of "witch craft" their power from the rings might have afforded them.

Now, we don't exactly know what happened to these kings before they were Wraithized (directly before), and it is possible that it may have even seemed to their people that they were dying (If you take Frodo's symptoms as typical, I imagine a certain amount of weariness/aging like symptoms would have proceded the final leap into the wraith world. As the rings would have been a secret, any number of stories could have developed to explain when a king simply wasn't their any longer, anything from stolen bodies, to madness, to being snatched away by evil forces.). If the nine were from different cultures and assuming that not all of them faded at the same rate, the distance (time and space wise) between each incident was probably enough that no one saw a pattern.

Anyway, despite the "supremacy" if you will, of the Numenorean royal line, there are other kings/kingdoms that seem to have a level of soveriegnty (my spelling stinks today) in their own right. Some of these (Dol Amroth) have pure or even purer Numenorean blood to the direct, Elendillian line. It is even mentioned that Bard of Laketown had some Numenorean blood, isn't it? In the Hobbit? Or is that just a reference to his relation to the kings of Dale absent of Numenorean lineship?

Anyway, the point being that there were probably several different Numenorean kings at one point or another within Middle Earth, more than enough to explain three of these disappearing without too much panic.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Well it's possible the Witch-king was from Dale, as not much history is given into their origins. Sauron might choose someone, if the land had been established when he travelled to the dwarves to give them their rings. The only problems are, if Dale was set up in the right time frame, and if he gave the dwarven rings to them at the Lonely Mountain.

 

[Wraithguard]

I highly doubt that the Witch King was from Dale. Perhaps the Nazgûl were not kings of origin but perhaps given lordship after their corruption?

 

[HLGStrider]

I just used Dale as a reference to prove there are other kingly lines that it could have drawn off of.

WG's suggestion is also valid, though.

 

[Wraithguard]

It seems logical. After all you wouldn't want to just pluck a couple mighty kings like Tar-Minastir or or Ar-Gimilzôr to become your corrupt minions.

 

[Valandil]

Brief History Lesson:

OK - I hate to do geeky/nerdy on you, but it's what I do best.

First of all, remember that the Nazgul first appeared over 1000 years before the sinking of Numenor - which rules out Ar-Pharzon and anyone else around that time. The Dwarves did not establish Erebor until about 2000 years into the Third Age - over 3000 years after the Wraiths appeared and over 3500 years after Sauron gave the rings to Dwarves and Men. I don't recall right now whether or not Dale was established before Erebor, or whether we're told.

I'm sure there were many other kingdoms to choose from. I think it most probable that Sauron gave the rings to Men who were kings already. There could have been many forgotten kingdoms on the lands that are familiar to us in their configurations of 5000 years later.

We are told that three of the nine were Numenoreans of noble birth. I know some who take that so far as to think that a King of Numenor WAS ensnared, although I disagree with it. For interest's sake though, one particular version of the theory is that it was Tar-Ciryatan - for he would have been old enough to receive a ring (and could have accompanied his father, Tar-Minastir) - and that he actually slew and replaced his son and also ruled Numenor in his son's stead as Tar-Atanamir. Then - once he fully became a Wraith, he drifted off to Mordor and was followed by Tar-Ancalimon. Sounds far-fetched I know, but get this: Tar-Atanamir dies in 2221 SA, according to "The Line of Elros" in UT. In LOTR Appendix B, the Ringwraiths first appear in 2221 SA. 'Coincidence?' my friends will ask. The App B account also shows Tar-Atanamir taking the scepter in 2221, but as I understand it, that was an error on JRRT's part, according to his son Christopher. Hmmm... 'Freudian slip' on JRRT's part?... was he just thinking 'successor to Tar-Ciryatan'??

Anyway - as I said, I'm not at all convinced. I think there would have been plenty of Numenorean nobles ruling part of Middle Earth as governors of Numenor - and acting as nominal 'kings' in their areas of control. (note - no 'aftermath of flood' because again, the Wraiths appeared over 1000 years before it) Very possibly some royal cousins or nephews, but I doubt a King of Numenor. Still, there's 2221...

I also think that at the time the Wraiths appeared, it might have been evident who those Wraiths had been. However, that knowledge was either lost to time (and the destruction to follow - who knows, Sauron might have had them wipe out their old kingdoms early on) - or else not revealed to the halfling chroniclers who passed along to us the information we have.

Thorondor is right about the HoME account. I do not possess that book, but as I understand it from other discussions, it sounds like there was an earlier concept that Tolkien had of the Ring-Wraiths. Something like that they had all been part of an order of Wizards - were all or mostly Numenorean - and that Gandalf was one of them, but betrayed them by turning 'good'. In that version, Gandalf was a Man of Numenor, not a Maia. Is that essentially correct, Thorondor?

 

[Ingwë]

Very interesting! I have always thought that the Witch King was a King of Angmar but it seems that I was wrong. I thought that Angmar is a Kingdom of Evil people, servants of Sauron and the Witch-King was their leader so Sauron gave him a Ring. But it is not so.
The Nazgul appear in SA 2251. In the Tale of the Years we find that in TA c.1300 (what does ‘c’ mean?) The Nazgul reappear. The Chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Chief is the Witch-King. He established the Witch-realm of Angmar long after receiving his Ring. So he had other kingdom before Angmar, maybe in the East or in South???
And another opinion… Some of the Nazgul are Black Numenoreans, other are not, but they all are evil What if they weren’t kings of their people but brothers, uncles, relatives to the real kings? Sauron needed people like that. Maybe he deceived them by promising the throne?

And about Sauron and the Nine Rings… and Sauron holding something… Does he have a physical form to hold anything? Wasn’t he a spirit who wanted a physical form but didn’t have it? How can he hold something in the real world…? The real Arda

Torondor, it seems that there are different quotes that show different things. Once Tolkien says that Sauron holds the Nine Rings, but Gandalf says that the Nine the Nazgul keep. Personally I think that physically the Nine Rings were held by the Nazgul. However, the words ‘the Nazgul keep’ may be interpreted. The Ringwraiths may keep them in Mordor. It is difficult with the word ‘keep’ to Bulgarian, keeping in mind that it may be translated in several ways in my language… Keep doesn’t mean ‘wear’ so the Nazgul may keep these Rings with other articles in a tower in Mordor.

“If the 9 rings of men were destroyed while the One Ring was still intact and all else was in place would the Nazgul still retain their power?”
I think that the Nazgul would retain their power. Frodo wore the One Ring for a moment, he was pierced by the Nazgul and his spirit started moving to the Realm of Shadows. While he wore the One Ring he saw the things of the Realm of Shadows, then he started fading and he put down the Ring but he continued moving to the Shadows. That process has already started and it couldn’t be stopped so easily. The Nazgul wore their Rings for a while and they faded until they became Spirits, Ringwraiths, Shadows under the Great Shadow. I mean that if once the process starts, it cannot be stopped, you become a shadow with or without the lesser Rings of Power. But without the One Ring the Nazgul died J
The chief Ring is Sauron’s and while it exist the others’ powers will exist. The One Ring was created to control the other Rings of Power, it contains the power of the other Rings. The Difference is that the other Rings Sauron gave to his servants, but the One Ring he kept for himself. I mean that:
THE ONE RING = Nine Rings + Seven Rings + more power

The problem is that there isn’t something created by the Seven Rings that exist. The fact that it exists would mean that the things don’t need the lesser Rings while we have the One.


About the names...:
names of nine ringwraiths
Names....??
Names Of The Nazgul
Nazgul Names

 

[Noldor_returned]

Well, recently I finished TTT again, and this passage stuck out:

[Faramir] '...The valley of Minas Morgul passed into evil very long ago, and it was a menace and a dread while the banished Enemy dwelt yet far away...As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city. But it was taken by fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepard in secret, they grew strong again. Then the Nine Riders issued forth from the gates of horror, and we could not withstand them...'

I can't believe none of us picked up on it before. There is little doubt Faramir would be wrong, seeing as a record would be kept of when lords of places died/went missing.

From what it sounds like, the Nine were Numenorean lords, but Minas Ithil was taken by a group of men that served Sauron. This would mean it was before the first downfall of Sauron. In fact, the earliest reference to them in the Tale of Years is:

2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

This comes after:

c. 1800 From about this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.

So sometime in the second age, between 1800 and 2251, Sauron gave the Nine Rings out. The Numenoreans were building settlements, so that would most likely require a lord of some sort, just to "ensure they are doing everything right" and to rule over the villagers. It wouldn't be too difficult for Sauron to kidnap them. He only needs nine, and 451 years is enough time.

This time frame also rules out who can and can't be Nazgul. The people of Eorl for one, and any peoples that didn't exist before the first overthrowing.

Later, in the Tale of Years, in the Third Age, it has:

1980 The Witch-king comes to Mordor, and there gathers the Nazgul...

2000 The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil.

2002 Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul. The palantir is captured...

So basically, in these 2000 years, a small populous emerged and took an entire building/city. There, Nine spirits ruled over them in the name of Sauron. The question is, were all Nine Numenoreans.

At no point did Faramir say whether they were all Numenoreans, but he hinted that they were. So, Khamul the Black Easterling is one of the Nazgul, but what of the others? It seems they were, since their lords came from Numenor. Then again, Faramir would have no definite evidence.