Úlairi
Crying in the Wilderness
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Legolam
Ad astra per aspera
- Joined
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It would depend if the Morgul blades would injure Balrogs the same way as they injure mortals and send them into a wraith world with just a scratch. If so, then I vote Ulairi. But it all depends what the Balrogs are "made of" if you see what I mean. If they're all just fire and stuff, then it's going to be pretty hard to knife them. Although you could use water ...
The Balrog was a corrupted Maia. It was not a mortal, so the morgul-blades wouldn't have much of an effect. The Balrog was slightly weaker then Sauron, and would have considered the nine about as hard to deal with as breakfast. Does anyone think that the nine could have dispatched the greatest dwarven city by themselves, alone and unaided?
Sauron and the Balrogs were both servants of Morgoth. Sauron could not control them in the second age so it would be difficult to believe that one of his creations could have destroyed a Balrog.
The Wraith-knife used to attack Frodo had spells specifically put on it to send Frodo into the 'Wraith-world' upon dying.
Remember, when Frodo wore the Ring, he was 'half in the Wraith-world' as Gandalf says.
High Elves & Maiar already existed in both the Seen & The Unseen worlds at the same time, so the Balrog was already there. Hence, a special blade would have no effect on it.
Water? All water did was turn the Balrog into 'a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake' which later 'burst into flame anew' as Gandalf says.
I think a much more likely outcome of the Nazgul visiting Moria & the Balrog would be a reunion of old friends & a coming to some sort of 'understanding' between the 2.
Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's chief Lieutenant.
The Balrog was just another unnamed Balrog under both Gothmog & Sauron in the 1st Age.
Not to mention, the Balrog was so scared it hid in a deep place in the Mountains for 5400 years while Sauron was out escaping the Host of The West (How'd he do that? Nice move Eonwe), making the Rings of Power, becoming Dark Lord II, taking over ME, corrupting the Numenoreans, reforming in Dol Guldur, etc......
As an aside, Why didn't Sauron, let alone The Wise, know there was a Balrog in Moria?
And if he did, why didn't he use it?
Remember, when Frodo wore the Ring, he was 'half in the Wraith-world' as Gandalf says.
High Elves & Maiar already existed in both the Seen & The Unseen worlds at the same time, so the Balrog was already there. Hence, a special blade would have no effect on it.
Water? All water did was turn the Balrog into 'a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake' which later 'burst into flame anew' as Gandalf says.
I think a much more likely outcome of the Nazgul visiting Moria & the Balrog would be a reunion of old friends & a coming to some sort of 'understanding' between the 2.
Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's chief Lieutenant.
The Balrog was just another unnamed Balrog under both Gothmog & Sauron in the 1st Age.
Not to mention, the Balrog was so scared it hid in a deep place in the Mountains for 5400 years while Sauron was out escaping the Host of The West (How'd he do that? Nice move Eonwe), making the Rings of Power, becoming Dark Lord II, taking over ME, corrupting the Numenoreans, reforming in Dol Guldur, etc......
As an aside, Why didn't Sauron, let alone The Wise, know there was a Balrog in Moria?
And if he did, why didn't he use it?
if he could have used it, do you think he would have sent it against Lothlorien first? Seems like an easy win to me.
What would have happened if the Balrog had gotten past Gandalf somehow on the bridge instead of falling? Would it have chased the Fellowship out the door?
What would have happened if the Balrog had gotten past Gandalf somehow on the bridge instead of falling? Would it have chased the Fellowship out the door?
...And stay out!! (spoken as Balrog claps hands together after chasing fellowship out the door)
Bucky, I don't think that the Balrog was under Sauron's command in Thangorodrim. I keep coming back to this figure in Morgoth's Ring: There should not have been considered to be more than 3-7 Balrogs. If that's the case, then we have a description (if not a name) for all 3,: Gothmog, Glorfindel's buddy, Gandalf's (and Durin's) buddy. Even if there were 7, it seems unlikely that the chain of command would have an extra loop just to get Sauron in the mix (and even if there were 7, just another unnamed balrog is still pretty important). IMO, Gothmog was a captain, Sauron was a lieutenant. I say that any of Gothmog's charges were on level with Sauron, and not subservient to him (I don't really think that Sauron was subservient to Gothmog either, I think that they were both autonomous and only answerable to Morgoth).
I also don't think that Sauron ran away during the final battle- he was at least involved to the point where Eonwe said he had to appear before Manwe and Mandos for judgement. He ignored the summons, but did not avoid the battle (I think).
As for why the wise & Sauron wouldn't know where the Balrog was, my opinion is that he was cast down from Thangorodrim during the final battle of the first age, and fell into part of the Misty Mountains near Khazad Dum, where he broke the mountainside and was buried for ~5000 years. He then wouldn't have been hiding, but trapped until the patrol of Dwarven miners conveniently liberated him. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part, but a fall like that and maybe Eonwe wouldn't feel like he had to see if the Balrog was dead, he could just (wrongly) assume. This would explain how one of Morgoth's chief remaining servants got out of the battle without being accounted for (if there were only 3 Balrogs originally, then he was the only one remaining during the final battle), by the Valar, the wise, Sauron, or the dwarves.
Bucky, I don't think that the Balrog was under Sauron's command in Thangorodrim. I keep coming back to this figure in Morgoth's Ring: There should not have been considered to be more than 3-7 Balrogs. If that's the case, then we have a description (if not a name) for all 3,: Gothmog, Glorfindel's buddy, Gandalf's (and Durin's) buddy. Even if there were 7, it seems unlikely that the chain of command would have an extra loop just to get Sauron in the mix (and even if there were 7, just another unnamed balrog is still pretty important). IMO, Gothmog was a captain, Sauron was a lieutenant. I say that any of Gothmog's charges were on level with Sauron, and not subservient to him (I don't really think that Sauron was subservient to Gothmog either, I think that they were both autonomous and only answerable to Morgoth).
I also don't think that Sauron ran away during the final battle- he was at least involved to the point where Eonwe said he had to appear before Manwe and Mandos for judgement. He ignored the summons, but did not avoid the battle (I think).
As for why the wise & Sauron wouldn't know where the Balrog was, my opinion is that he was cast down from Thangorodrim during the final battle of the first age, and fell into part of the Misty Mountains near Khazad Dum, where he broke the mountainside and was buried for ~5000 years. He then wouldn't have been hiding, but trapped until the patrol of Dwarven miners conveniently liberated him. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part, but a fall like that and maybe Eonwe wouldn't feel like he had to see if the Balrog was dead, he could just (wrongly) assume. This would explain how one of Morgoth's chief remaining servants got out of the battle without being accounted for (if there were only 3 Balrogs originally, then he was the only one remaining during the final battle), by the Valar, the wise, Sauron, or the dwarves.
Beleg Strongbow
Superior Elf
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2002
- Messages
- 696
No he wouldn't go he only obeys morgoth or there dead leader gothmog. Otherwise sauron would have called in his support. He knows there are ba;lrogs just"chillin" in M.E and were would you look 1st?? As for the nazgul you have to be kidding. He wouldn't answer to them. They use fear, he is scarrier and scares them. They hate fire remember aragorn now what would a balrog do with his giant flame whip?? . The nazgul are only really scary theuse fear to hurt people. There is no way ion tjhe world they could force the balrog to come over. No one could. I think this is how the chain of command would go
Melkor
Glaurung
sauron gothmog
dragons and balrogs and cheiftains
once glaurung had gone and gothmog sauron stepped up. Glaurung i think was just ahead of him until he died. Then After them gothmog and the other scary dudes.
. The nazgul are only really scary theuse fear to hurt people. There is no way ion tjhe world they could force the balrog to come over. No one could. I think this is how the chain of command would goMelkor
Glaurung
sauron gothmog
dragons and balrogs and cheiftains
once glaurung had gone and gothmog sauron stepped up. Glaurung i think was just ahead of him until he died. Then After them gothmog and the other scary dudes.
>>>As for why the wise & Sauron wouldn't know where the Balrog was, my
opinion is that he was cast down from Thangorodrim during the final battle of
the first age, and fell into part of the Misty Mountains near Khazad Dum,
That, as Eonwe says, is quite a 'shot', from North of Beleriand to Moria, about what? 1000 miles?
Yet, Gandalf 'cast down' the Balrog from a much smaller distance, & Glorfindel & his Balrog 'fell' to their death.
Doesn't Tolkien say 'The Balrogs were well nigh all destroyed, save some few who hid themselves'?
Notice ALL, Few, & HID.
Hid certainly does not indicate a 'blow' that would send DB 1000 miles.
All & few would indicate alot more than 3-7.
Remember, those HoM texts are 'primative' versions & not finished texts (although some would say that of The Silmarillion too).
In all my rememberances of The Silm, which I should begin reading again in another day or 2, the amount of Balrogs certainly is presented as being more than three, or even seven. At least that's the impression I got:
There were Balrogs in his (Glaurung's) train.
Read the bit with Ungoliant. Morgoth hasn't got the power to make her flee, but only 3 Balrogs do?
I doubt that.
How about this: 2 are destroyed in the Fall of Gondolin, so if there were only 3, how could 'the Balrogs (notice plural) be destroyed, save some few (plural again) that hid themselves' at the end of the 1st Age?
That alone would indicate there was way more than 3.
And, if 2 were destroyed in Gondolin alone, is it safe to assume that one or 2 at least might have bought it in all the previous battles going all the way back to the 1st wars the Valar had with Melkor?
>>>I also don't think that Sauron ran away during the final battle- he was at
least involved to the point where Eonwe said he had to appear before
Manwe and Mandos for judgement. He ignored the summons, but did not
avoid the battle (I think).
Agreed.
The part I can't understand is this:
They cut off Morgoth's feet, bind him in a chain & drag him off; they kill all the Balrogs (they think) & the Dragons, but Sauron survives & Eonwe lets him walk out the door while holding him prisoner?????
I mean, the whole camp was 'raised up' against the Son's of Feanor when they seize the Silmarills, but Sauron just walked off?
But, Eonwe let The M&M boys walk off with The Silmarills too.
Makes you wonder if Tulkas or Orome or Manwe himself should have gone instead.
Finally:
Would the Nazgul have been able to defeat the Balrog?
Could be....
Gandalf the Grey 'throws down' Durin's Bane & then dies himself.
At worst, depending on your point of view, it's a draw.
But, the Nazgul fight Gandalf the Grey at Weathertop & all survive. Again a draw. Although Gandalf says he was 'hard put to it indeed', & 'at sunrise I escaped', not that 'The Nine escaped me'.
Finally, Denethor tells Gandalf the White, who has much greater power, "Perhaps you withdrew (from the Witch-king) because you overmatched?"
Whitey responds "It might be so."
Makes one think.
But, I still think the 10 of them would've hit it off right away....
opinion is that he was cast down from Thangorodrim during the final battle of
the first age, and fell into part of the Misty Mountains near Khazad Dum,
That, as Eonwe says, is quite a 'shot', from North of Beleriand to Moria, about what? 1000 miles?
Yet, Gandalf 'cast down' the Balrog from a much smaller distance, & Glorfindel & his Balrog 'fell' to their death.
Doesn't Tolkien say 'The Balrogs were well nigh all destroyed, save some few who hid themselves'?
Notice ALL, Few, & HID.
Hid certainly does not indicate a 'blow' that would send DB 1000 miles.
All & few would indicate alot more than 3-7.
Remember, those HoM texts are 'primative' versions & not finished texts (although some would say that of The Silmarillion too).
In all my rememberances of The Silm, which I should begin reading again in another day or 2, the amount of Balrogs certainly is presented as being more than three, or even seven. At least that's the impression I got:
There were Balrogs in his (Glaurung's) train.
Read the bit with Ungoliant. Morgoth hasn't got the power to make her flee, but only 3 Balrogs do?
I doubt that.
How about this: 2 are destroyed in the Fall of Gondolin, so if there were only 3, how could 'the Balrogs (notice plural) be destroyed, save some few (plural again) that hid themselves' at the end of the 1st Age?
That alone would indicate there was way more than 3.
And, if 2 were destroyed in Gondolin alone, is it safe to assume that one or 2 at least might have bought it in all the previous battles going all the way back to the 1st wars the Valar had with Melkor?
>>>I also don't think that Sauron ran away during the final battle- he was at
least involved to the point where Eonwe said he had to appear before
Manwe and Mandos for judgement. He ignored the summons, but did not
avoid the battle (I think).
Agreed.
The part I can't understand is this:
They cut off Morgoth's feet, bind him in a chain & drag him off; they kill all the Balrogs (they think) & the Dragons, but Sauron survives & Eonwe lets him walk out the door while holding him prisoner?????
I mean, the whole camp was 'raised up' against the Son's of Feanor when they seize the Silmarills, but Sauron just walked off?
But, Eonwe let The M&M boys walk off with The Silmarills too.
Makes you wonder if Tulkas or Orome or Manwe himself should have gone instead.
Finally:
Would the Nazgul have been able to defeat the Balrog?
Could be....
Gandalf the Grey 'throws down' Durin's Bane & then dies himself.
At worst, depending on your point of view, it's a draw.
But, the Nazgul fight Gandalf the Grey at Weathertop & all survive. Again a draw. Although Gandalf says he was 'hard put to it indeed', & 'at sunrise I escaped', not that 'The Nine escaped me'.
Finally, Denethor tells Gandalf the White, who has much greater power, "Perhaps you withdrew (from the Witch-king) because you overmatched?"
Whitey responds "It might be so."
Makes one think.
But, I still think the 10 of them would've hit it off right away....
Úlairi
Crying in the Wilderness
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That's absolutely correct Bucky. Does anyone remember the prophecy of the Witch-King? "No mortal man should kill the Witch-King."
Now, I know that Gandalf is a Maia, but he was in the flesh of man and was capable of being slain as it says in UT. Denethor does say that Gandalf could be outmatched and Gandalf said that that may be so. Gandalf killed the Balrog when he was Gandalf the Grey yet he thought that he could be outmatched when he was Gandalf the White, the resurrected Gandalf, the more "powerful" Gandalf. He thought, even when he was at the pinnacle of his might on ME that he could be outmatched by a mere mortal man when he defeated a Balrog (A CORRUPTED MAIA) when he was of lesser power. Doesn't say much for Gandalf. I hope I have shed some light on the subject. Now, in light of this new evidence, who would win, the Nine Nazgul (and it was also said that the Nazgul, when all together, were undefeatable by even MAIAR!) or the Balrog???
As for your belief of the order of the servants of Melkor (Morgoth, Beleg Stronbow you are mistaken. Glaurung was not of higher rank than Sauron. It says in the Valaquenta in the Silmarillion on page 35 of my copy that:
If Sauron fought the Balrog, hey, no competition there. Sauron would go "remember me?" and kick his fiery ass in. When Morgoth Bauglir left Sauron in charge of the war he could control the Balrogs.
Anyway, who would win? The NINE Nazgul (Ulairi) or the Balrog (UNO, ONE, UN, EIN!!!)
Beleg Strongbow
Superior Elf
- Joined
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- 696
Good point about the Nazgul not liking fire.
But, Gandalf (the white, no less) was also a Maiar & he was concerned about The Witch-king's power by himself, let alone with 8 others.
We've already established that Gandalf the Grey was at least an even match for the Balrog & went to a 'no decision' with the Nazgul.
So, there's more to this power issue than the formula of:
Men < Maiar
Remember, The Nazgul are not normal men.
They live in the 'Unseen' world, same as the Maiar, Valar & other Spirits (see Barrowights or the Two Watchers at Cirith Ungol).
They've been enpowered by the Nine Rings.
They (or at least their leader) dabble in Sorcery.
It's already been seen that a 'normal' man without a Ring of Power could gain longer life & great power through sorcery (see The Mouth of Sauron).
I think, if anything, the evidence points to the Nazgul having an advantage.
But, Gandalf (the white, no less) was also a Maiar & he was concerned about The Witch-king's power by himself, let alone with 8 others.
We've already established that Gandalf the Grey was at least an even match for the Balrog & went to a 'no decision' with the Nazgul.
So, there's more to this power issue than the formula of:
Men < Maiar
Remember, The Nazgul are not normal men.
They live in the 'Unseen' world, same as the Maiar, Valar & other Spirits (see Barrowights or the Two Watchers at Cirith Ungol).
They've been enpowered by the Nine Rings.
They (or at least their leader) dabble in Sorcery.
It's already been seen that a 'normal' man without a Ring of Power could gain longer life & great power through sorcery (see The Mouth of Sauron).
I think, if anything, the evidence points to the Nazgul having an advantage.
Bucky I follow your logic completely, especially what is said between Gandalf and Denethor, and how Gandalf the Grey was a match for the Balrog. I agree with how you laid it out...
I just don't "feel" like it was written that way to imply that a Balrog was at a disadvantage to a Nazgul...
1) I think Gandalf the White could have kicked the Lord of Nazgul's #@$ easily. I think what he says to Denethor is something like he hasn't been tested yet...
2) I just don't see where a Maia, spirit of fire would be less than or equal to a man with one of the 9 Rings on.
Although, you could argue that a few powerful elves are an example, where Glorfindel and Ecthelion are able to vanquish (there's that word again) their opponents, so maybe you are right...
I just don't "feel" like it was written that way to imply that a Balrog was at a disadvantage to a Nazgul...
1) I think Gandalf the White could have kicked the Lord of Nazgul's #@$ easily. I think what he says to Denethor is something like he hasn't been tested yet...
2) I just don't see where a Maia, spirit of fire would be less than or equal to a man with one of the 9 Rings on.
Although, you could argue that a few powerful elves are an example, where Glorfindel and Ecthelion are able to vanquish (there's that word again) their opponents, so maybe you are right...
Bucky: Ri-diddly-iculous.
The nine got their powers from the rings. The rings were empowered by the one ring. The one ring was empowered by Sauron. Sauron was in his creation a (powerful) maia. The balrog was a (less powerful) maia. You're saying that three degrees of removal from the power of Sauron is still more powerful than the inherent power of a fellow maia. I ain't buying it (where's Harad when you need support in being obstinate?).
Since you guys are bent on Gandalf, I'll bring in another player: Glorfindel.
Balrog vs Glorfindel- even match.
Witch King vs Glorfindel- Witch King soils armor while running away.
Glorfindel's own statement- Elrond sends out those who could ride against all nine.
So if Glorfindel and a Balrog is an even match, and Glorifindel can ride against all nine Nazgul, then I think the Balrog could also 'ride' (or is that move with winged speed?) against the nine.
The nine got their powers from the rings. The rings were empowered by the one ring. The one ring was empowered by Sauron. Sauron was in his creation a (powerful) maia. The balrog was a (less powerful) maia. You're saying that three degrees of removal from the power of Sauron is still more powerful than the inherent power of a fellow maia. I ain't buying it (where's Harad when you need support in being obstinate?).
Since you guys are bent on Gandalf, I'll bring in another player: Glorfindel.
Balrog vs Glorfindel- even match.
Witch King vs Glorfindel- Witch King soils armor while running away.
Glorfindel's own statement- Elrond sends out those who could ride against all nine.
So if Glorfindel and a Balrog is an even match, and Glorifindel can ride against all nine Nazgul, then I think the Balrog could also 'ride' (or is that move with winged speed?) against the nine.
Úlairi
Crying in the Wilderness
- Joined
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No, but seriously folks, Gandalf the Grey was slain by a Balrog. And Gandalf the White (who was substantially more powerful than Gandalf the Grey) was afraid that the Lord of the Nazgul could beat him by himself, without the nine. Someone made a good point about the Rings power giving the Nazgul an advantage. Let's not bring Glorfindel into this. The question was who would win the Balrogs or the Nazgul, who, as it says, were undefeatable when the Nine were together. Glorfindel couldn't take on all the Nazgul by himself, no way! Maybe he could outride them (whopee, bring out the party poppers!) but big deal. So, who would win, the Balrog (only one of him remember!) or the Nazgul (all Nine of those delectable bad guys!)? I think that if the Nazgul went to recruit Durin's Bane into Sauron's service, they'd probably all enjoy a nice bottle of wine or whatever evil beings do to get to know each other better, like skinning an Orc alive, then set off for Dol Guldur together....
And die happily ever after.
But, how & where would the Nazgul cross the Great River?
When they did it to find the Shire, Sauron had made great strides in increasing his military power, & was also coming from Mordor via Osgiliath or somewhat further north.
Prior to his re-entering Mordor, the passage to Anduin would be near or through Lorien.
And what about DB? I bet Balrogs were like cats when it came to going into water......
Aragil:
Yes Glorfindel is a good arguement, but you are still calling the Nazgul 'Men' & not counting their sorcery & Rings, plus their entrance into the Wraith-world.
They are, in fact, no longer of the race of Men.
And, I still ain't buying Glorfindel is the same one who fell to his death in Gondolin.
The matter was apparently far from settled in Tolkien's mind.
Either way, the 3rd Age Glorfindel was a High Elf & had ample power.
And die happily ever after.
But, how & where would the Nazgul cross the Great River?
When they did it to find the Shire, Sauron had made great strides in increasing his military power, & was also coming from Mordor via Osgiliath or somewhat further north.
Prior to his re-entering Mordor, the passage to Anduin would be near or through Lorien.
And what about DB? I bet Balrogs were like cats when it came to going into water......
Aragil:
Yes Glorfindel is a good arguement, but you are still calling the Nazgul 'Men' & not counting their sorcery & Rings, plus their entrance into the Wraith-world.
They are, in fact, no longer of the race of Men.
And, I still ain't buying Glorfindel is the same one who fell to his death in Gondolin.
The matter was apparently far from settled in Tolkien's mind.
Either way, the 3rd Age Glorfindel was a High Elf & had ample power.
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