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Aulë
The Larrikin
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Lantarion
no house
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Aye, and it is!
Because we really don't know the extent of the power of either the Maiar or the Nazgûl.. All we know is that Maiar, though they apparently come in many 'levels' of might, are very powerful 'magical' beings with the general ability of taking whatever form they want. In the Book of Lost Tales, a glimpse is given of the might of the Maiar who serve the Valar (the respecrive 'Clans' of the Maiar).. And we know that Ossë and Uinen are both noted for their strength (e.g. Ossë's wrath at sea). So the conception of a Maia who has been altered from their original form to an evil one by Melkor (and presumably given extra abilities 'in return for their soul', which I have affectionately named the 'Gift of Melkor') is not very pretty.
Whereas the Nazgûl, being once mortal Men, would not seem to be as terrifying. And yet, I would hypothesize that Sauron has granted some extra 'gifts' to the Nazgûl, much like Melkor might have, to make them as deadly as they are immortal (at least while the Ring exists). I would exhibit things like the Black Breath, the Nazgûls' prowess in battle (e.g. the Witch-king), and the general air of terror that goes before them (which, I might add, is not that different from that of the Valaraukar).
But I would still stand by the Balrogs; they are just mean!
Because we really don't know the extent of the power of either the Maiar or the Nazgûl.. All we know is that Maiar, though they apparently come in many 'levels' of might, are very powerful 'magical' beings with the general ability of taking whatever form they want. In the Book of Lost Tales, a glimpse is given of the might of the Maiar who serve the Valar (the respecrive 'Clans' of the Maiar).. And we know that Ossë and Uinen are both noted for their strength (e.g. Ossë's wrath at sea). So the conception of a Maia who has been altered from their original form to an evil one by Melkor (and presumably given extra abilities 'in return for their soul', which I have affectionately named the 'Gift of Melkor') is not very pretty.
Whereas the Nazgûl, being once mortal Men, would not seem to be as terrifying. And yet, I would hypothesize that Sauron has granted some extra 'gifts' to the Nazgûl, much like Melkor might have, to make them as deadly as they are immortal (at least while the Ring exists). I would exhibit things like the Black Breath, the Nazgûls' prowess in battle (e.g. the Witch-king), and the general air of terror that goes before them (which, I might add, is not that different from that of the Valaraukar).
But I would still stand by the Balrogs; they are just mean!
BlackCaptain
Vast Menace of Despair
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Lantarion
no house
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That would be pure speculation. Tolkien gives us only a tiny hint at what dragons even are!
I assume that they were all bred by Melkor; but would that mean that they were physcial creatures which Melkor corrupted, or Maiar which Melkor corrupted?? And the whole notion of all dragons being bred comes from the history of the dragons Ancalagon and Glaurung, who are specifically mentioned to be created by Melkor.
So just off the top of my head: I think Balrogs are more powerful.
I assume that they were all bred by Melkor; but would that mean that they were physcial creatures which Melkor corrupted, or Maiar which Melkor corrupted?? And the whole notion of all dragons being bred comes from the history of the dragons Ancalagon and Glaurung, who are specifically mentioned to be created by Melkor.
So just off the top of my head: I think Balrogs are more powerful.
Retired Manwe
Trogdor!!!
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Retired Manwe
Trogdor!!!
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
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Well, Dragons have SOME sort of spirit in them.....
"Then Glaurung spoke BY THE FELL SPIRIT IN HIM".... Just happened to read that a few hours ago.
As far as Balrog vs Dragon, so many variables, but I think that size & power would rule there.
Every dragon I've seen a detailed report of death on, save the utterly ridiculous Ancalagon the Black vs Earendil in the boat in the sky story, was a matter of 'a shot in the dark' to a soft underbelly, not overpowering. And, face, stealth is not a Balrog's strongpoint.....
Gandalf didn't fear the Nazgul, whilst he seemed quite worried when Durin's Bane decided to appear during his trek through Moria.
Denethor: "Is it possible you withdrew (from the Witch-King/Black Captain) because you had faced a foe by whom you were overmatched?" (paraphrased)
Gandalf: "How Dare you! I'm Don't fear him!"
No.....
Gandalf: "Could Be, Our test has not yet come..." (paraphrase again)
BTW, Gandalf never said he was worried about the Balrog.....
"I have never felt such a challenge. The counter spell was terrible."
"A balrog. Now I understand... And I am already weary."
"A Balrog. Now I understand."
Is it possible Gandalf had dealt with a few Balrogs as part of The Host Of The West at either Utumno or Angband in the past?
Good possibility.......
Oh, to answer the original question, no doubt, similarities, but Balrogs are by far greater than Nazgul.
Here's another 'food for thought'......
What if Durin's Bane had discovered The Ring in Moria?
Was he Dark Lord material?
I'd say yes, if just by default in TA Middle Earth.
"Then Glaurung spoke BY THE FELL SPIRIT IN HIM".... Just happened to read that a few hours ago.
As far as Balrog vs Dragon, so many variables, but I think that size & power would rule there.
Every dragon I've seen a detailed report of death on, save the utterly ridiculous Ancalagon the Black vs Earendil in the boat in the sky story, was a matter of 'a shot in the dark' to a soft underbelly, not overpowering. And, face, stealth is not a Balrog's strongpoint.....
Gandalf didn't fear the Nazgul, whilst he seemed quite worried when Durin's Bane decided to appear during his trek through Moria.
Denethor: "Is it possible you withdrew (from the Witch-King/Black Captain) because you had faced a foe by whom you were overmatched?" (paraphrased)
Gandalf: "How Dare you! I'm Don't fear him!"
No.....
Gandalf: "Could Be, Our test has not yet come..." (paraphrase again)
BTW, Gandalf never said he was worried about the Balrog.....
"I have never felt such a challenge. The counter spell was terrible."
"A balrog. Now I understand... And I am already weary."
"A Balrog. Now I understand."
Is it possible Gandalf had dealt with a few Balrogs as part of The Host Of The West at either Utumno or Angband in the past?
Good possibility.......
Oh, to answer the original question, no doubt, similarities, but Balrogs are by far greater than Nazgul.
Here's another 'food for thought'......
What if Durin's Bane had discovered The Ring in Moria?
Was he Dark Lord material?
I'd say yes, if just by default in TA Middle Earth.
Red Istar
Incompetent
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 92
No, wrong track.......
A football player is a person, but a person isn't necessarily a football player.....
Just as a Balrog was Maia but Maiar weren't automatically Balrogs.
And for the record, Sauron certainly appears to be presented as much more powerful than most Balrogs, but not because he was Lieutenant of Morgoth. Gothmog, Lord Of The Balrogs, was High Captain Of Angband, so which is higher? I know, it's been debated before, but I think Sauron had more authority except on the battlefield where there's no evidence Sauron ever fought.
A football player is a person, but a person isn't necessarily a football player.....
Just as a Balrog was Maia but Maiar weren't automatically Balrogs.
And for the record, Sauron certainly appears to be presented as much more powerful than most Balrogs, but not because he was Lieutenant of Morgoth. Gothmog, Lord Of The Balrogs, was High Captain Of Angband, so which is higher? I know, it's been debated before, but I think Sauron had more authority except on the battlefield where there's no evidence Sauron ever fought.
Lantarion
no house
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- Aug 19, 2001
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- 3,710
Well if we're going to discuss the hierarchy of the servants of Melkor..!
I would say that Sauron was higher up in the chain of command than Gothmog, but that Gothmog was mightier in what we would consider concrete 'Valinorean stature' (a word which Tolkien uses) and 'magical powers'. Sauron had extreme skill in phantoms, fear, tricks and effects, and could ensnare his victim(s) with these weapons; Gothmog, I assume, would have used more concrete tactics like..oh, say, try to smash your skull in with a dirty great big mace!
I would say that Sauron was higher up in the chain of command than Gothmog, but that Gothmog was mightier in what we would consider concrete 'Valinorean stature' (a word which Tolkien uses) and 'magical powers'. Sauron had extreme skill in phantoms, fear, tricks and effects, and could ensnare his victim(s) with these weapons; Gothmog, I assume, would have used more concrete tactics like..oh, say, try to smash your skull in with a dirty great big mace!
Red Istar
Incompetent
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
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- 92
*looks around for helmet*
I don't know if Gothmog was killed or not; I haven't gotten that far into the Silmarillion yet. But if he wasn't it seems like he would have become the next "big baddie."
I don't know if Gothmog was killed or not; I haven't gotten that far into the Silmarillion yet. But if he wasn't it seems like he would have become the next "big baddie."
I would say that Sauron was higher up in the chain of command than Gothmog, but that Gothmog was mightier in what we would consider concrete 'Valinorean stature' (a word which Tolkien uses) and 'magical powers'.
NOT!
Sauron...... Gothmog....... Names of Morgoth's cheif servants, correct?
'Amoung those of his (Melkor/Morgoth) servants that have names THE GREATEST was that spirit whom the Eldar call Sauron'
NOT!
Sauron...... Gothmog....... Names of Morgoth's cheif servants, correct?
'Amoung those of his (Melkor/Morgoth) servants that have names THE GREATEST was that spirit whom the Eldar call Sauron'
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