Needing help on place names for my 📔book

[Eryndir]

Greetings all,
I am writing a book, this is my forth, and this time I'm indulging in one of my all time favorite subjects, fantasy. In this case a Tolkienesque type fantasy with elves, dwarves (or dwarfs), orcs, etc. Most, but not all of his creatures, and adding a few not in his books. It is planned to be a trilogy. I have started a map (gotta have a map) using Inkarnate (awesome map maker, I must admit). I'm not trying to learn conversational Sindarin or Quenya. I'd like to, but just don't have the time. There are plenty of tools for names. What I need help with are place names. I'm using Kingdom of Andúntaur for the home of my elven protagonists. That is, maybe, more properly An Dún Taur which means North West Woods, if I'm translating the words correctly. I'd use Glad, or forest, but tbh I wish Tolkien had chosen another name for forest. I prefer Taur, or woods. So I've mashed An Dún Taur together to come up with Andúntaur, which is probably not proper, but this is a made up language and I'm no linguistic genius like Tolkien. Kingdom is English, of course, so I'm sort of bastardizing my place names. (forgive me) BUT if I add the Sindarin word for Kingdom and add that to the place name I'm using I come up with Andúntauraranië, which is still probably incorrect and just too blinking long. These are the kinds of issues I am running into. I'm probably overthinking this, which I tend to do. I was just going to say screw it, and use what I wanted, but if anyone actually reads this, it will be people like us, and I'd really appreciate some feedback. SO, I went to the experts (that's you guys) to ask for help. If I should be posting this on a different forum please direct me to the proper place.

Help!
Eryndir (my male protagonist's name, and my fantasy name...If I ever decide to do role play...so don't steal it!!) ;-)

 

[Ent]

I'm probably overthinking this,

It's very possible of course, but let us not be hasty....

I've thoughts on a couple different levels here. I trust you do not mind if I ponder a bit...?
I will most likely come back with a couple questions before I will personally say anything more.

 

[Ent]

OK, here would be my first questions:

1. Is there a particular reason you feel you need to try, in some way, to 'conform' to the nature of Tolkien's invented languages?

2. To what extent does the rest of your fantasy universe 'conform' to Tolkiens in other arenas?

(Naturally, just the use of elves, dwarves, trolls, faeries, gnomes, dragons, etc. don't necessarily conform to him at all, as they all precede him by a significant period of time.)

I ask these particular two questions, because:

1) - if there's no real reason you feel you need to conform to someone else's language it may not be a 'good idea' to try to do so. It COULD actually work against you.

2) - unless your fantasy is actually a fanfic, conforming in several other ways to his world by design, you may do well to free yourself from the trappings of someone else's world, and let yourself fly in your own.

Tolkien himself was a 'copyist'... borrowing ideas and concepts from multiple places. Yet he made each bit he borrowed his very own, in his very own world.

He was 'free with his borrowed concepts' not 'bound by them'.

Anyway, let's start with the first two questions, and see where that takes us.

 

[Eryndir]

Excellent and you didn't take fifty years to formulate your questions, so you are quite quick for an Ent.

1. Good question, and, I suppose my answer is yes. I prefer for someone to read my work without stopping to say, "That's not correct." But, at the same time I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I would like for the terminology I'm using to fit into an acceptable pattern, but am more than willing to break all of the rules if it suits me. My request for help is more of a mild one. If I can't get acceptable responses, then I'll just go ahead and make stuff up...like Tolkien himself did.

2. My story conforms only minimally to Tolkien's work and that is intentional. I want to write something different, but still using some of the same conventions that we have all come to consider acceptable for this sort of fantasy story.

And, yes, Tolkien happily "borrowed" others ideas, which I see nothing wrong with as long as you can come up with something different and interesting.

 

[Ent]

for someone to read my work without stopping to say, "That's not correct."

I guess what I'm not grasping is why anyone would make this comparison to begin with.

You are trying to create something new and different in a realm where Tolkien is just one among many writers.

And I would guess a large percentage of your potential audience, even if familiar with Tolkien, are largely clueless about his invented languages.

To be honest, I should think the most consistent way to develop your different world would be to consistently avoid relationship with his inventions. These differ from the conventions of the genre.

They are far from universal. And if you try, then indeed any missteps, for those few who may be aware, really will stick out.

(And either way, if they're offended they have the problem, not you...though of course The Religion Of Opinion will never allow them to see the problem is theirs.)

Anyway, my own suggestion on this point would be to divorce yourself from his languages altogether. Those are not among the "conventions we've come to consider acceptable" for high or romantic or epic fantasy.

Tolkien, though he's great, did not redefine the entire realm of fantasy so it conforms to his inventions. He might even feel like he was stifling creativity if he could answer for himself on the matter.

For my recommendation, free yourself from what MAY be some self imposed bondage... But without knowing the rest of the conformity of your work to his, I may be off base.

I am unable to help with Tolkien language based place names, as though the depth of his work is incredibly important to me, his languages have been irrelevant, other than to know and grasp what a feat he accomplished with them. My strength is in editing,

So from here, I will stand aside and trust others versed in his naming conventions will step in and help. There are several language knowledgeable folk aboard.

Just don't be hasty in your decision. Are you inventing a new world conforming to genre conventions, or a crossover novel borrowing more than conventions, but language, lands, characters etc. as well.

Either way is fine.

 

[Eryndir]

Understood. Thanks Old Ent. You are correct in pointing out that the large majority of readers wouldn't know or care about the difference. Like I said, I tend to overthink these things. The problem with divorcing myself completely from Tolkien is that I would have to come up with an entirely new set of place and character names, which significantly increases the difficulty of writing my book, when I'd rather concentrate on the actions/interactions of my characters. I'll likely choose a path somewhere in between, but I do appreciate your input.

 

[Ent]

I would have to come up with an entirely new set of place and character names,

Then this becomes the compelling factor. You're already invested in the connection in a broader way than just a few place names alone--the convention of language application has become consistent across other applications in the text too, and in fact a part of the 'conventions' being incorporated.

Indeed, hasty you are not. And wastey you are not, as time is precious to us all.

I can't help you other than staying out of the way then. Happy to do so.
I'm considering deleting all the posts back to your original question, so folks aren't deterred in their help to you.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Hello and welcome to the forum!
I'm not that fluent in any of the languages so I can't help you myself...but there is a site that you can use

Lord of the Rings Elf Name Generator

Our elf name generator includes your name meaning in Sindarin language from The Lord of the Rings.

www.namegeneratorfun.com

Also @𝐀𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐞𝐥 𝐀𝐥𝐦𝐚𝐥𝐚𝐮𝐫𝐢𝐞̈ is quite fluent in Quenya from what I've seen from her RP posts! I don't know about their sindarin though!

 

[Ent]

@Eryndir - here's one other thought / suggestion as well. (then I really am out of gas.)

Construct a few of the names you are considering, and post those names back in the "Languages" thread where this started before we moved it to books.

Just ask "Does this mean (blah) or if not, how should it be written."

Our langauge experts will see those individual (or 2 or 3 item) requests, and be happy to chime in when they come on board.

Or just ask them in that thread, "What would (such and such a name) look like iin Quenya"... or "Sindarin"... or if you're really bored and needing sleep, "In Old Entish".....

this might get you to some specifics more quickly as well. (except for the Entish of course.)

 

[Elthir]

Welcome Eryndir!

I understand your reasons for wanting to stick with Tolkien's languages. But if I may be so bold
(or annoying), I'll echo the recommendation to drop this path.

That said, it's up to you of course! Also, is your model Sindarin? If so, especially with taur you could break up a name, and break out the hyphen! Considering Tolkien's. . .

Taur en-Faroth
Taur na-Neldor
Taur nu-Fuin

. . . and more!

But then again, if you want to echo Tolkien "correctly", I guess you'd have to study the language, including the very fun consonant mutations, and in what "situation" they occur! Or get help from those who have studied Grey Elven . . . erm, to state the already obvious!

Anyway, in general, you might make a name "easier" if you try not to jam "too much" meaning into it. You brought up "kingdom" for example, but one doesn't need (not that you said otherwise) a "kingdom type word" in the name, for it to be a kingdom. Gondor "Stone-land" for example.

Anyway again, I guess you could provide a desired meaning and ask our experts (I'm not one though I might be able to handle what I consider the "easier" ones, if I have the time) in the language forum to provide a Sindarin or Neo-Sindarin form. I'm also no copyright law expert, so I don't know what a book filled with "obviously" (at least to some people) Sindarin nomenclature might mean in legal circles.

I don't know plenty of other things too!

but I can go into that in other threads if I feel like it

 

[Ent]

I'm also no copyright law expert, so I don't know what a book filled with "obviously" (at least to some people) Sindarin nomenclature might mean in legal circles.

@Eryndir -

I could speak to this if/should the need arise.
I've still all the stuff handy from my own research given the fanfic books I'm plottiing out as we e-speak.

But as you've published already, 3(?) others, you're probably fully aware of the 3 primary (and really only) questions a court would/could ask and what the responses would need to be, should any 'legal things' be brought. (and if they ask anything outside the 3 questions, it's irrelevant to the law...although they love to try to twist things up whenever they can. they get paid more by dragging things out.)

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

@Elthir
Do you happen to know any sources for learning them?
I want to but I don't know where to start!

 

[Elthir]

Hi Aredhel!

There a nice list of resources over at E.L.F., including online resources too.

Resources for Tolkienian Linguistics

www.elvish.org

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Hi Aredhel!

There a nice list of resources over at E.L.F., including online resources too.

Resources for Tolkienian Linguistics

www.elvish.org

Thanks a lot!

 

[Eryndir]

Thanks for all of your very interesting replies. I'm going to have to seriously consider inviting my own language. Of course I wouldn't have to worry about the conversational aspect, only individual and location naming. Hmm, thanks again.

 

[Gilruin]

I'm going to have to seriously consider inviting my own language. Of course I wouldn't have to worry about the conversational aspect, only individual and location naming.

That's the spirit! Naming languages are actually not that huge of an undertaking, one approach could be the following:

1. Write down a bunch of meanings for names
2. Decide on roots for recurring elements and endings. If you have trouble coming up with something you like, invent a word for one of the names it occurs in and then decide which part of it means the thing you were after (e. g. Hiskarut = “Wetlands”. From that we could decide that -t is the plural marker, and run, pl. rut = land. Then Hiska must mean ‘wet’, and maybe it could be derived from hisk = river). Also decide on some fundamental structures like if adjectives come first or second: do your people say big-river or river-big in a name?
3. Maybe throw in a few rules and idiosyncrasies to smooth things out, e. g. suppose we know want “red river”. We've decided that ‘river’ is hisk and maybe red is tun, but perhaps you don’t like Tunhisk and decide that n + h always simplifies to nn: Tunnisk.
4. Rinse and repeat until you are happy with it!

With having a go at Elvish there are realistically only two things that can happen: either your reader recognizes that you are using them and it breaks their immersion because noticing that means that they now think about your story on a meta-level, or they just don’t notice and/or care.
In case you still decide to go with Sindarin, I can help with that, but I really don’t see why you would. For “Southwestern Forest”, I would suggest Eryn Charnûn or Taur Charnûn, the combination ?An Dún Taur doesn’t really work with Sindarin grammar (and south is har-, not ?an). Aranië is Quenya, for Sindarin I think a compound name like Elthir suggest would be best, something like Arnad-en-Eryn-Charnûn or perhaps Arnad-en-Charnuthor/Charnundor, but I agree that it would be quite unwieldy, in general it’s best to limit oneself to four elements per name. Eryndir seems to work for “forest-man” in Sindarin.