Questions; Concerning 🧌Orcs and their Origins

[Úlairi]

It says in the Silmarillion that when Melkor spread his first shadow over Arda after the Elves were created by Eru Iluvatar that there were fey and fell creatures of Melkor dwelling in places near Elf encampments. When ever an Elf strayed into the darkness, the creatures of Melkor would capture it. There Melkor tortured and marred them into Orcs.

 

[Greymantle]

Grond... I would agree totally if it weren't for the sheer number of times Orcs appear before the coming of Men in the Sil. If Orcs had simply been mentioned, or had theirorigins described, or been counted among the creatures of Melkor, it would be one thing. But the very fact that they are present at so many battles and have such important roles before they could possibly have been bred from Men would lead me not entirely to accept this "after the fact" alteration.
However, I don't see where there is any other answer. The Elvish theory that is generally accepted simply does not work for me, for a number of reasons. But seeing as Melkor could not truly create creatures of his own...
But if this is the case, where did the dragons come from? I don't believe they were either Maiar or earth spirits...though I could be wrong there.
I started this post trying to say something but now I've realized that I really have no idea what I'm trying to say. Finals have fried my brains.

 

[Gloer]

Men woke up with the FIRST SUN RISE

There are Orcs fighting against Faenor and Elwe Singollo before this and Fingolfins arrival with the rest of the Noldo led by Fingolfin. And that group arrived with the first sun rise.

My hypothesis:

The Valar are very careful not to tear the world upside down before the Eldar woke because they did not know where they were hidden and supposed to wake. So they only took Melkor captive when the elves were born and located. This leaves us the idea that Elves and men do not just pop up from nowhere. They are actually hidden long before waking up.

So my explanation of Orcs being twisted men and not elves as elves themselves thought is the following.

Manwe and all valar had visions of the song at times - they remembered the future. So the elves were born and Melkor finds them first. He tries to bend them to his will, but they only break and die. My theory is that Melkor remembered that there will be yet another theme after the first theme that must have ment the elves! So he started searching and finally Melkor found out where some of the men were hidden well before their time had come.

He woke them up and twisted them to Orcs. But the eldar nor the valar couldn't think of this since the men had not been born yet. So they thought that Orcs where elven origin and maybe Melkor also spread this lie to make him seem more powerful.

 

[fëanáro]

nice theory gloer, i agree with u, but it is still a hypothesis because we'll never find out.
though i have a newbie question:

¿what about all the beasts and creatures melkor made before the second theme, when he drew the valar out of middle earth into valinor? ¿how the balrogs and other beasts came to life? ¿where they melkor-made or eru-made?

coz if they're melkor-made, then as melkor created his own theme out of the first great theme all the valar and eru made , melkor could make his own living creatures apart from any theme thought and envisioned by eru, melkor made himself free and thought himself of better greatnes than all the valar and the closer to eru´s greatness.

 

[Grond]

It is clear from the Silmarillion that Melkor could make nothing on his own. Anything he would have attempted would have been much as with Aule and the dwarves, mere robotrons that did as he said but when his thought turned away from them became inanimate again.

The Balrogs are Maia, lesser Ainur as is Sauron, Melian, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and the Blue Wizards. The dragons, werewolves, orcs and the other monster creatures were probably something fair in the beginning but Melkor corrupted their spirits and their bodies and changed their basic essence. He couldn't create but he could corrupt.

 

[Snaga]

The main problem with orcs being corrupted elves is that the immortality thing.

Could Melkor twist and corrupt elves to the extent that they lose their immortality?

I'm probably over my head too, but I won't let that dissuade me from some wild speculation

If I understand it correctly, immortality means two characteristics:
(1) You don't die 'of natural causes' unless you despair of life. Elves having plenty to be thankful for, do not often despair of life. More likely, they get on the first boat going west...

(2) If you are slain, through unnatural causes, you get to spend some time in the Hall of Mandos, and then, all else being equal, you get let out again.

Now looking at these (yes - they're probably not right - please correct me!!!), I would say:

(1) Corrupted elves would despair frequently because their existence is so hateful even to themselves

(2) Obviously lots die in battle, and I bet they are a disease ridden lot etc etc. But I doubt that Mandos lets too many of them back out if they end up in his Hall. I seem to recall that some of the Noldor who rebelled were not let out (????) so I don't think orcs would be.

So the corruption that Melkor enacted could well destroy the immortal nature of the elves he based them on.

Yes I know I'm reaching !

 

[Greymantle]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... but if I remember rightly, the only instances in which a spirit leaves Mandos were with Beren and possibly Glorfindel (yes, in my opinion). I don't believe that even Elves could leave of their own will...but hey! I've been wrong before. Many, many times.

 

[Úlairi]

The Origins of Orcs

I am aware that a thread may have been posted on this topic before. But I think it deserves another look. As I am having an interesting debate with Cian on the topic.

Here are a few quotes from the Sil:

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
The Silmarillion Page 58

Here, it is outlined clearly that Orcs were Elves, the Quendi. In the next quote, Tolkien gets more into a specific race of Elves, the Avari, who are the Elves who refused to join the westward march from Cuivienen.

"...and among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they were yet few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said."
The Silmarillion Page 110

Take not of the bold section at the bottom in which Tolkien says that the Elves had guessed:

"...all to near..."

So, was their guess close to the truth, were Orcs really the Elves? Some of you may be thinking that I have answered my own question, however, Tolkien says in The Annals of Aman:

"...orcs are not Elves."

Now, I too would be inclined to take the opinion of Tolkien himself, and not the Editor of The Silmarillion, Tolkien's son, Christopher Tolkien. However, before Tolkien published The Lord of the Rings he had tried to get The Silmarillion published, therefore Tolkien actually wrote all of The Silmarillion, and his son Christopher had merely edited it. Now, I now that editing can cause quite significant change before a book or column et cetera is published, however, Christopher Tolkien wrote this in the Foreword of The Silmarillion:

"Not only however, does The Silmarillion relate the events of a far earlier time than those of The Lord of the Rings; it is also, in all the essentials of its conception, far the earlier work. Indeed although it was not then called The Silmarillion, it was already in being half a century ago; and in battered notebooks extending back to 1917 can still be read the earliest versions, often hastily pencilled, of the central stories of the mythology. But it was never published (though some indication of its content could be gleaned from The Lord of the Rings), and throughout my father's long life he never abandoned it, nor ceased even in his last years to work on it. In all that time The Silmarillion, considered simply as a large narrative structure, underwent relatively little radical change;..."
The Silmarillion Foreword Page 7

Note the quote:

"...underwent relatively little radical change;..."

So, if The Silmarillion did not change significantly enough to discredit what has been stated on the 'Origins of Orcs', then, are Orcs really Elves. Has Tolkien contradicted himself in a fashion in which he deemed that Orcs were Elves, whereas he has said specifically that Orcs were not Elves. Or, were quotes such as these...

...little is known of a certainty...

...the Elves knew not...

...loopholes for Tolkien to escape contradiction?

 

[Gothmog]

There is nothing in the Silmarillion that states for certain that the Orcs were created from Elves. The quotes you find in there leave the question open.

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."

in this quote you use what you must look at is the way the information is given. Tolkien wrote this in such a way as not to give certain answers.

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor?

So there is no one who can say what happened in the depths of Utumno, so we cannot rely on any reports being true.

Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea

This is the opinion of Elves who never went to Utumno and knew nothing of the works of Mekor in respect of the Orcs, they could only guess what had happened.

You also used the following quote.

"...all to near..."

But you missed out the last part of the Quote,

it is said

So even this does not prove anything as it is once again only the opinion of some who guess from insufficient information.

The Loopholes were not there to avoid contradiction but to leave open a question that Tolkien himself had not made a final decision about.

 

[Rangerdave]

A very fine hair to split

he has said specifically that Orcs were not Elves

This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread.

Orcs were not Elves, very good so far. Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc. But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves". Just as a German Sheppard is not a wolf, despite the fact that the Sheppards were bred from wolves: so too an orc is not an Elf.

This is purely hypothetical here, but I believe that all the Elves captured by Morgoth either remained Elves or were completely destroyed in the Pits of Utumno (sp?). But who is to say that both the male and female captives were not forced to breed with all manner of vile and villainous creatures.

Since we have very little first hand knowlidge of what goings on occured under Morgoth's occupation of Middle-Earth before he was chained by the Valar. All manner of atrocities may have come to pass. I would imagine that the ghastly rape of an Elf by either a troll or goblin would produce something rather orc-like. I shudder to think of the outcome if Morgoth had bred Elves to a Balrog.

So, in a nutshell, the orcs are not Elves, but rather the forced offspring of Elves.

Just a theory. I have no actual proof to back this up, but it has always made sense to me.

RD

ps. for all the orc fans out there, a race that evil does not deserve to be capitalized. Hence the difference between Elves, Men and orcs.

 

[Úlairi]

Gothmog:-

Originally posted by Gothmog
There is nothing in the Silmarillion that states for certain that the Orcs were created from Elves. The quotes you find in there leave the question open.

Yes, I agree with you Gothmog, however, if yu read my post I said:

Originally posted by Ulairi
So, was their guess close to the truth, were Orcs really the Elves?

As you can see, I am unsure of the truth myself Gothmog, so do not be as so hasty that all my threads that I create are based on my opinions and my opinion alone, here, I am asking the question and trying to answer it at the same time if you are capable of reading between the lines.

Originally posted by Gothmog
in this quote you use what you must look at is the way the information is given. Tolkien wrote this in such a way as not to give certain answers.

Exactimo Gothmog. That is what I believe also. Tolkien himself left the topic open for debate whether in his own mind or the mind of those who had influence on his writings such as C.S. Lewis and the rest of the 'Inklings'. Tolkien left the topic open so that he could conceptually search for the rash and logical answer. Through my thread, I am trying to be inside the mind of Tolkien, to make conceptual searches of my own on the same topic that he must have debated with himself so many years ago. So many people enjoy LotR as a book entirely in itself, as do I. However, if a book fascinates me as much as this, I enjoy getting inside the mind of the author and collaborating with others on the topic. The people of this forum are my guide to finding a logical answer to the solution.

Originally posted by Gothmog
So there is no one who can say what happened in the depths of Utumno, so we cannot rely on any reports being true.

Yet again you fail to read my post with he depth required to comprehend what I am saying. I am asking a question, not forming an opinion. I will form an opinion when I deem a sufficiant amount of information and educated hypothesis has been given, therefore satisfying myself hopefully knowing that the answer I derive from the insightful posts on the people of this forum will lead me to a logical solution solving the problem that is at hand.

Originally posted by Gothmog
This is the opinion of Elves who never went to Utumno and knew nothing of the works of Mekor in respect of the Orcs, they could only guess what had happened.

Need I say anymore Gothmog?

Originally posted by Gothmog
But you missed out the last part of the Quote,

Yes, I did, and not without reason. As this part of the quote is easily dismissable as it is of little relevance. I will prove why. Here, I will ask you a question Gothmog in which I know has only one answer. The quote again:

"...it is said."

Said by whom? Who said this? The wise of Eressea? The Elves? No, said by Tolkien, the author of the book. He said that this is so, and so it is (spoonerism). Tolkien was speaking his ideas through the charactres. Gothmog, are you familiar with the cliche:

"To read between the lines."

This is not a personal attack, but this is what you need to do to comprehend what Tolkien is saying by reading between the lines. Tolkien was projecting his own ideas through the Elves. Without Tolkien, the wise of Eressea, the Avari, nothing exists. Comprehend now?

Originally posted by Gothmog
The Loopholes were not there to avoid contradiction but to leave open a question that Tolkien himself had not made a final decision about.

Gothmog, in this case, you have hit the nail right on the head and I congratulate you for it. As I have said, Tolkien left the 'Origins of Orcs' concept for later times so that he could 'conceptually search' for the solution for this daunting problem.

Rangerdave:-


This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread.

Orcs were not Elves, very good so far. Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc. But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves". Just as a German Sheppard is not a wolf, despite the fact that the Sheppards were bred from wolves: so too an orc is not an Elf.

This is purely hypothetical here, but I believe that all the Elves captured by Morgoth either remained Elves or were completely destroyed in the Pits of Utumno (sp?). But who is to say that both the male and female captives were not forced to breed with all manner of vile and villainous creatures.

Since we have very little first hand knowlidge of what goings on occured under Morgoth's occupation of Middle-Earth before he was chained by the Valar. All manner of atrocities may have come to pass. I would imagine that the ghastly rape of an Elf by either a troll or goblin would produce something rather orc-like. I shudder to think of the outcome if Morgoth had bred Elves to a Balrog.

So, in a nutshell, the orcs are not Elves, but rather the forced offspring of Elves.

Just a theory. I have no actual proof to back this up, but it has always made sense to me.

RD

ps. for all the orc fans out there, a race that evil does not deserve to be capitalized. Hence the difference between Elves, Men and orcs.

Originally posted by Rangerdave
This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread.

IMO, I am a student of Tolkien in my own fashion, however, the topic itself does not daunt me RD, it is finding the solution to the problem at hand which is the daunting part as we are already no closer to solving the problem since I began the thread.

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Orcs were not Elves, very good so far.

RD, you can't say that. Yes, Tolkien did draw the conclusion in The Annals of Aman that Orcs were not Elves, but no Tolkien Scholar has disregarded The Silmarillion as one of Tolkien's most serious pieces of work. Post-The Annals of Aman time, Tolkien may still have been contemplating on the idea, and here's your proof. The Annals of Aman were published before The Silmarillion[/B], not after. So, why would Tolkien disregard an idea in one book that he published and publish the fact that is was true later (via his son) in The Silmarillion?

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc.

I am a Creationist at heart and I always will be, but lets say (for arguments sake) that Evolution is true. Apes looked like apes, they walked like apes, they talked (grunted) like apes, and ate their bananas like an ape, well, then it must be an ape? Right? Wrong! Amazingly, apes they became humans! This could be the same way with Orcs, and you and I both know that this cannot be proven or vice versa.

Originally posted by Rangerdave
But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves".

Very clever RD, you managed to get yourself out of a pickle. Tolkien did say:

"...and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs..."

Notice the word 'breed', not 'Orcs were Elves, but something to the effect of: 'Orcs were bred from Elves'. May I congratulate you also RD for bringing us one step closer to finding what I have referred to as:

Originally posted by Ulairi "...a logical solution..."

So, if Orcs weren't Elves but were 'bred' from Elves, how was this done? Well, RD has provided us with a logical theory. My mother is threatening me at the moment and I must go before she blows her top, and I mean this literally. I will be back to post the remainder of what I was going to say and I apologise for any inconvenience.

 

[Gothmog]

Ulairi, If you comprehended as much as you think you do you would realise that I was answering your question stating that there is no definate answer. So you may theorise as much as you like and come to an answer that seems good to you but it will only be your opinion. the part of the quote you decided to toss out was in fact a very important part. It was the one means by which Tolkien kept the question open, with out that part it becomes a definate answer while with that part in, it becomes an opinion of the charaters. But since you obviously do not wish to have the answers I give I will in future refrain from cluttering your threads with my obviously inane chatter.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Ulairi wrote:

Yes, Tolkien did draw the conclusion in The Annals of Aman that Orcs were not Elves, but no Tolkien Scholar has disregarded The Silmarillion as one of Tolkien's most serious pieces of work. Post-The Annals of Aman time, Tolkien may still have been contemplating on the idea, and here's your proof. The Annals of Aman were published before The Silmarillion, not after. So, why would Tolkien disregard an idea in one book that he published and publish the fact that is was true later (via his son) in The Silmarillion?

JRRT never published the Annals of Aman, nor were they published before The Silmarillion. The Annals of Aman were not published until 1993. They were written ca. 1951; the 'alter this Orcs are not Elvish' was not part of the Annals, but a later addition to the typescript (ca. 1958).

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Ulairi, If you comprehended as much as you think you do you would realise that I was answering your question stating that there is no definate answer.

I know this, and I agree with you, there are arguments on both sides. I comprehended very well what you were saying Gothmog. And, as I have said, I agree with you. There is no definite answer.

Originally posted by Gothmog
So you may theorise as much as you like and come to an answer that seems good to you but it will only be your opinion.

But it will be formed upon the valid (and my In stress the word) opinions of others. The reason I will form my own opinion on the topic is because as you have said yourself:

Originally posted by Gothmog
...there is no definate answer.

Originally posted by Gothmog
the part of the quote you decided to toss out was in fact a very important part. It was the one means by which Tolkien kept the question open, with out that part it becomes a definate answer while with that part in, it becomes an opinion of the charaters.

Exactly right Gothmog. I dismissed it as irrelevant as I saw no point in being redundant. I had already said that Tolkien had left the topic 'open for discussion' with quotes such as:

"...little is known for a certainty..."

It was saying the same as other quotes before it, which is why I dismissed it. Comprehend?

Originally posted by Gothmog
But since you obviously do not wish to have the answers I give I will in future refrain from cluttering your threads with my obviously inane chatter.

No need to get esoteric on me Gothmog. Your opinions are extremely valid, and if I might say, without them, this thread would probably not exist. So, I very much wish for you to continue posting in my thread for as long as you deem.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
JRRT never published the Annals of Aman, nor were they published before The Silmarillion. The Annals of Aman were not published until 1993. They were written ca. 1951; the 'alter this Orcs are not Elvish' was not part of the Annals, but a later addition to the typescript (ca. 1958).

Thankyou for that Tar-Elenion. In the debate I was having with Cian she mentioned the book, but not when it was published and I jumped to false conclusions, and I apologise. I have heard of nor have read the book myslef. However, despite it was an addition to the book, the argument on the 'Origins of Orcs' not being Elvish still stand. So, back to my previous question. Were Orcs really Elves? In The Annals of Aman it says they were not, but in The Silmarillionm it says that they were. So, what is the correct answer?

 

[Walter]

Orcs...are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be "corruptions"Letter 144, April 25, 1954

Ulairi, a word to the wise: "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses" or "Wisdom usually grows in direct relation to the awareness of the own ignorance"...

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Thankyou for that Tar-Elenion.

You're welcome.

In the debate I was having with Cian she mentioned the book,

Cian is a _HE_, not a she. Where is this debate taking place?

but not when it was published and I jumped to false conclusions, and I apologise. I have heard of nor have read the book myslef.

The 'Annals of Aman' is not a book. It is rather an extended 'Tale of Years' (JRRT was rewritting and updating the 'Annals of Valinor' found in HoME 5). CRT drew from this, in part, when preparing The Silmarillion(which was incomplete) for publication. The 'Annals of Aman' were published in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10).

However, despite it was an addition to the book, the argument on the 'Origins of Orcs' not being Elvish still stand. So, back to my previous question. Were Orcs really Elves? In The Annals of Aman it says they were not, but in The Silmarillionm it says that they were. So, what is the correct answer?

If this query is directed at me, the best I can say is that JRRT never came to a firm conclusion on this matter. CRT presents various of his father's essays on the origin of Orcs in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10). In these various essays JRRT speculates that Orcs are variously 'descended' from corrupted beasts (animals) or Men or Elves or Maiar or a mixture of some or all of these. Again he never seems to have come to a firm conclusion as to their origin. The one I prefer has Orcs primarily coming from Elves and later Men, with a Maiarin strain accounting for some of the greater Orc Captains (sometimes known as 'Boldogs').

 

[Úlairi]

The deabte is taking place in 'The Guild of Scholar's Hall' in 'The Prancing Pony'. As for Cian, I apologise, the name was suggestive to me that you were female, my apologies!

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Again he never seems to have come to a firm conclusion as to their origin. The one I prefer has Orcs primarily coming from Elves and later Men, with a Maiarin strain accounting for some of the greater Orc Captains.

Which I prefer as well Tar E. I do like the Maiar orc-formed Captains esp.

In "tPPony" I "tossed in" some info gleaned from MR (along with the note "Alter this ..."). Indeed I didn't textually explain "AoAman" in the thread, emphasizing rather (or trying to) the simpler 'conclusion' that Tolkien was yet reflecting on 'orc-origins' in addition to what is read in the published Silmarillion (plus example from an essay).

I find the essay example (of which I quoted from CT's commentary rather) interesting indeed, but the nature of the essays don't exactly fill one with confidence that Tolkien had made up his mind for good here Imo.

And yes, as Tar E said, Cian (Kee-in) is a he. My name is a 'real world' name of Celtic derivation if anyone cared for further info on it. No problem

 

[Úlairi]

My apologies once more. I guess deductive logic is not always the best option. Btw Cian, a good post.

 

[Walter]

Well it appears most evident that: "Orcs ARE NOT Elves", but JRRT seemed to avoid definitive statements about the "Origin of Orcs". There sure exist a few - some of them are contradictional, but none of those seems "definitive" to me. The most generally approved theory is, that Orcs were of elvish origin, transformed, corrupted or whatever. Tolkien also stated that "some were probably derived from men" and "But always among them ... there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes". Oh - and trolls and beasts were also taken into consideration it seems. So - we have a lot of possibilities to choose from, don't we?

As mentioned in previous posts there is an interesting section in the HoME (Morgoth's Ring - Myths transformed; Chapter VIII) about the Origin of Orcs. It seems Tolkien at some point for several reasons was no longer satisfied with the Elvish origin of Orcs, hence he wrote several essays on this topic with different approaches. The "conclusive" statement from CT reads as follows:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.
But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript of this essay are some pages in manuscript for which my father used the blank reverse sides of papers provided by the publishers dated 10 November 1969. These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word Orc, is given on p. 422; the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p. 417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'.

It seems JRRT wanted the Orcs to be derived from Men, but he also was aware that with this, he was contradicting earlier statements in the LotR (already published) and the Sil ("ready to be published", but he had not yet found someone really willing to publish it) and furthermore this theory did not seem to go very well together with the timetable of the FA (hence the twist that Sauron bred the majority of them anyway)...

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Edit: had I read the other thread in TPP before, I would have noticed that someone has posted this 2 days before me ... who? ... Cian...- I should like to say "of course"

What did I say a few posts ago (this time to myself): Si tacuisses...

Cheers