Questions; Concerning 🧌Orcs and their Origins

[Úlairi]

A well conceived post. I cannot disagree Walter, and I must get a copy of Morgoth's Ring.

 

[Beren Erchanion]

Well, well, well. I didn't read all of your quotes and stuffs 'cause I'm sure to know them all. A long time ago (6 months)I started a poll about the first-born concept and everybody was against my concepts and ideas because of two things:-1: I'm french and Tolkien use a too complicate vocabulary, and his a «jewel» of the english language so I have read everting about JRR in French. So that quotes stuff is a bit boring for me and i cannot do some. That makes it hard for me debate on such complicate subjects as the first born concept and the origins of the orcs. 2: I'm always proposing my ideas like: « There's a F*ck*ng big hole in the story over there but we got enough info to fill it. Me, I would filled it that way...» and I think it's the better way to find the truth about it.(But peoples called me a liar or told me that I was using false argument) Because be sure of someting: when you're a writer you don't let a such big hole in your story if the reader don't have the enough element to fill it. it doesn't have tobe clear because that would've been stupid to read: «Eru said to Manwë that orcs were Elves.» But knowing that Melkor cannot create life by itself, and that Orcs are fearful little slaves that SEES IN THE DARK (an elven power) is quite enough to guess what happen to those elves in Utumno. It's a bit like this Tommy problem. I've red in the news paper an interview with JRR about the mystery of Tom Bombadil. Tolkien answered to the repoter:«It's quite funny to put a charcter that you don't tell who he really is (what race he is in the case of Tommy) when you know the answer. Most writer use it to put an aura of mystery around the novel.(There is a lot of movies based on this concept.) It,s like giving to the reader a task he have to figure who the character really is or he can just let it undiscovered or just don't care. But there must be a real answer otherwise it's a bit embarassing to make your character evoluate in the story espacially in fairy tales. thats what I did with Tom Bombadil.»(I'm not quoting because I'm transalating, i've read the article in french)
so i'm not afraid to say this: Orcs were elves, Tom is a retired maia/vala(except the tasks there is no distinctions),Gandalf is NO MORE a maia and Balrogs are the real first born. So if you want a debate about it please don't come and quote me two me two pages of the sil or said "your wrong because ther is no answer" cause like JRR said« there must be an answer »

_________________
P.S. I'm not angry, but I'm back

 

[Úlairi]

Beren, that was the most conjectural post I have ever read on any topics of Tolkien.

 

[¤-Elessar-¤]

ok, I don't know if anyone has said this, but has anyone considered that possibly they can both be true? The statements posted in the question pointed that the orcs were elven in origin, but they were transformed by the evil art of Melkor into orcs. The orcs multiplied, and new orcs decended not from elves, but orcs themselves. So they were not nessesarily ever elves. Its kindof like the Adam and Eve thing, they were related, but thousands of years later you are not nessisarliy related to the next person you see walking down the street. um.... crap....lost my train of thought....ok... so, perhaps the quote that says orcs are not elves was referring more to LoTR, a time so far past that of Melkor's corruption that there were no longer any similarities, no longer any elven qualities among the orcs.... yea....

 

[Snaga]

Unpalatable though it is if you accept Tolkiens assertion that Morgoth couldn't create life, then elves look like a probable bet. Believe me, I hate the idea. Ugh.... elves!

But consider: we fought the elves in the Battle Under Stars, we were bred in the pits of Utumno. Men hadn't yet awoken. Conclusion: We weren't bred from Men.

Personally I think Tolkien is just lying, and Melkor being the big boss just created us in his own image.

 

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Oh really? Why do you think Ilutivar gave control of Arda to Manwe, lord of all? Because Melkor was an Idiot! He was hot headed and rather full of himself. He would had easily been defeated what, two or three times before the whole Silmaril thing? The council of doom just took pity on the fool! Ha!

 

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by ¤-Elessar-¤
The council of doom just took pity on the fool! Ha!

The Council of Doom. hmmmmm? wasn't that Lex Luthor's gang of super-baddies in the old Super Friends cartoon?

No wait, I remember, that was the Legion of Doom. My bad.
RD

My God that was a bad joke. Sorry.

 

[Edhel-dûr]

In Myths Transformed we can read this:

"They could be slain, and they were subject
to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not
immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed
they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with
the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

I think it´s a very important quote because it denies an elvish origin of orcs.We know that elves are by nature inmortal and we know that only Eru can change the nature of the people.This quote certains that orcs are of mortal nature, and doesn´t speak of any change in his nature so we can secure that they allways have been mortal, and in conclusion we can eliminate a possible elvish origin of the orcs.

For more information about this topic you can visit this link(the problem is that is written in Spanish XD):

http://www.elfenomeno.com/tolkien/faq/ver_faq.php?id=5

Congratulations to the webmasters of the Tolkien Forum,i think it´s a very interesting web.

Greetings from Spain.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think it´s a very important quote because it denies an elvish origin of orcs.We know that elves are by nature inmortal and we know that only Eru can change the nature of the people.

Alternatively, if you dilute an elven gene pool enough, blend it with the seed of a beast/animal and create a mongrel breed such as Orcs, you can assume that many of the inherent traits of the original sample will be eradicated.

but of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise.

What I find key to this is the fact that Orcs, bred before the coming of Man were in the form, shape appearance of both Elves and Men. Nothing else on Middle-Earth at this time was similar in shape to the Children of Iluvatar, other than the Children themselves. So, how can Orcs not be in origin Elves, if Melkor cannot make even the semblence of life?

Yes they are Elven in origin, however, by the description of Orcs, being that of elven/human stature, the only possiblity is that Elves were bred with Melkors beasts, possibly wolves, dogs or other fell creatures. The essence here is the fact that they reproduce; so in reality, any creature that can spawn offspring can mate with these unfortunate few. Over time, the horror of these creatures becomes so that they are no better than the animals they were bred with, and in turn bred among themselves. The real point is that Melkor cannot create life, he could not design or shape, only plunder and rape that which he had access to; in this case The Quendi.

Orcs are absolutely Elven in origin.


Welcome to The Tolkien Forum Edhel-dûr, good to meet you

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Edhel-dûr
In Myths Transformed we can read this:

"They could be slain, and they were subject
to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not
immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed
they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with
the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

I think it´s a very important quote because it denies an elvish origin of orcs.We know that elves are by nature inmortal and we know that only Eru can change the nature of the people.This quote certains that orcs are of mortal nature, and doesn´t speak of any change in his nature so we can secure that they allways have been mortal, and in conclusion we can eliminate a possible elvish origin of the orcs.

Nice theory. But it has holes in it.
Yes Elves are immortal and orcs are not. But that doesn't mean that orcs are not descended from Elves. If what was suggested above, that Elves captured by Melkor were forced to breed with creatures such as Trolls or Goblins of some kind, then the offspring would be Half Elven.
We know that in the cases of Elf-Human offspring, the offspring can be mortal, such as Elros, and (maybe) the princes of Dol Amroth.
So, That quote does not prove that orcs are not descended from Elves. The immortality could have been lost in breeding.

 

[Mormegil]

*Puts on an unhappy face*

Anc got there before me. With a better post than mine.

 

[Edhel-dûr]

Mmmm,thanks for your wellcome dear friends.Excuse me for my low level of english,well,you´ll have noticed i´m from Spain XD.

I think that the last Tolien notes about this "problem" tendes to eliminate the orc origin.
I want to see the orcs like an independent race corrupted by Melkor instead of a corruption of an existent one.I believe it is the best way to find the solution to the "problem".In fact,in the Letters,we can read that the orcs are an independent race,a preexistent race wich was corrupted by the arts of Melkor.
The passage of the Silmarillion showed above this reply gets into the topic..."it is said that",and i think that isn´t decisively.

What do you think about orcs like an independet en preexistent race?

Nobody speaks spanish? XDXD.

Greetings from Spain.

 

[Ancalagon]

Hola......well, that's about the height of it Trust me, I have enough problems getting to grips with English myself, especially after a night on the town, afterwhich I am fluent in 'washing machine!'

I do not agree with Orcs being a pre-existing race, the only way this can happen is if they are maia in origin, who chose to assume this form when they came to Middle-Earth. Aside from Dwarves, the only other human/elven type creature are Elves themselves. If Melkor cannot give life to any being, create any being such as Elves, then how can we explain a creature with reproductive organs similar to Elves and Men? The only possible explanation is that they are Elvish in origin.

 

[Edhel-dûr]

Mmmm,well,i really think orcs are preexistent because of Tolkien in his letter 153 says:

"I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them"

That´s why i think they can be an independent race in wich he put his power for corrupting them.(In several fragments he says that they are a race)

In the same way that Melkor found the first the elves,he could have find this race and corrupted them into orcs.

Greetings to all.

 

[Ancalagon]

I am a great believer in original concepts, initiative, gut-feeling and the like. I also think, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press or the bible. Likewise, Tolkien replies to a lot a questions but doesn't always gives an answer, most likely because he doesn't know or is being made to think about it long after he wrote about it.

That Orcs are Elves origin is a certainty. Orcs are a race, they are not the Firstborn, nor are they the Secondborn. The only other race are Dwarves, who don't figure in this problem. They were not created (creation being the actual giving of life) by Melkor, nor were they created by Eru. The only other power able to create was Aule, who created Dwarves, they of course were granted existence by Eru after their creation (creation as in being manufactured) but were put away in their box until Christmas

The only other option here is that Orcs were Maia in origin but there is absolutely no evidence for this, neither can it be discounted. However, this reverts back to the question of reproductive organs, which I feel is the key to this whole question. The only humanlike race that were equiped with this capacity were Elves; how then do Orcs obtain this if there is no-one else there to create them? Maia did not form an orderly queue to become Orcs surely, they would have at least had the gumption to aim a little higher!

 

[Edhel-dûr]

Well,let me make you a question XD.

If orcs are elves corrupted(i´m not sure at all XD) how can you explain his high rate of reproduction?......another change introducted by Melkor?.....

Greetings.

 

[Ancalagon]

Elves can reproduce, we know that. The basis of my arguement is what they were bred with over time to become Orcs. If they were bred with a type of animal or beast, it can be assumed that the ability of this animal/beast to produce has accelerated the natural ability of the original elf, who is now become Orc.

Phew, if you can understand that post; more power to ya

 

[Edhel-dûr]

Mmmm,genetically is impossible to mix an animal race with a human one isn´t it? XD.

Greetings.

 

[¤-Elessar-¤]

ok, the quote says that orcs were 'pre-existing, real beings'. Could that not be meant to say that they were elves, which were pre-existing, real beings? Also, the rather rapid reproduction (wow...too many 'r' words) of the orcs could be attributed to the supposed animal breeding, seeing as how animals tend to breed at a much higher rate than elves, who were immortal and bore few children.

--edit----
didn't see the last post

Elves aren't human , and, even if they were the same in that aspect, there is no saying that dark magic couldn't have helped in that catagory. Melkor's magic throws out most claims of science and logic.

 

[Ancalagon]

Mmmm,genetically is impossible to mix an animal race with a human one isn´t it?

But is Tolkien aware of that when he is writng about Orcs? Even now, I am sure it is not beyond the realms of imagination to think of scientists breeding human/animal hybrids. So what then is a Valar able to do through sorcery?