Saurons 👁️eye

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Ok, now I'm really spinning in circles. I don't know who to follow here... What Lhunithiliel said is what I've always thought. *very, very confused*.

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Note the difference:
'What Lhunithiliel said': "he can not get back his strength to choose a new shape/body he would wish to have > he chooses HORROR as his new "BODY" (isn't a lidless eye in flames horrifying?!)".

What JRRT (the author) said: "The form that he took was that of a man".

I dont see what is so confusing about accepting what the author said about his own work, especially since he never said otherwise.

I think much of the confusion arises due to the use of the 'Eye' both in the book and (more misleadingly) the film.
I've always thought of the eye as a metaphor for Sauron's attention, or thought, rather than a physical disembodied eye floating around. Frodo, when wearing the Ring on Amon Hen, experiences this;

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was.

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Frodo could not have physically felt an eyeball at that distance, what he felt was the attention and awareness of Sauron, who, whilst Frodo wore the ring, could perceive him, and therefore was mentally seeking his location.

As to Sauron's physical shape,, in addition to other quotes above, in The Council of Elrond Gandalf says;

Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer inDol Guldur, and secretly explored its ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other thanSauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.

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This says nothing of Sauron taking shape as an eyeball, and if he had, how would Gandalf have recognised him?

The FIRST thing Lhunithiliel said is:

He did have a body BEFORE the ring was cut off >

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And I'm pritty sure about that! Yes, Sauron HAD A HUMAN BODY, but when he lost the ring in which he had, sort of, transfered all his powers, it was impossible to take a human body shape again.
Besides, even your own quotes speak exactly in favour of my opinion.

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.

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As he could not gain his previous shape (that of a human body), he chose the form which a lot of the characters are describing to have seen on one or another occasion of "meeting" Sauron - Boromir, Frodo, Gandalf, Galadriel, Pippin, Aragorn).
I have to run off to work now , but the quotes I promissed are in fact the words of the above enlisted LOTR characters who speak of the "EYE" that they saw.

Sorry to jump in, but...

Are we applying 'mortal' restrictions of form upon an immortal? I had always assumed he was one, the other, or both forms depending upon how he chose to reveal himself. Is he not Maia?

I believe Sauron, like Lovecraft's dark gods, was difficult to view by mortals, and did not really conform to physical laws. Those beholding him saw what he wished them to see, whether it be in their minds or in the flesh.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The FIRST thing Lhunithiliel said is:
quote:
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He did have a body BEFORE the ring was cut off >
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And I'm pritty sure about that! Yes, Sauron HAD A HUMAN BODY, but when he lost the ring in which he had, sort of, transfered all his powers, it was impossible to take a human body shape again.

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Correct, Sauron had a 'human' form before the Ring was cut off his hand by Isildur. He also had a 'human' form before he was destroyed in the Atalante. He was disembodied then and had to reform. Similarly he eventually reformed/reembodied after the Ring was cut from his hand, as JRRT wrote in Letter 200: "After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor."
However JRRT the author (who wrote it and should know) said he rebuilt his form. JRRT also said what this form was in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."

Besides, even your own quotes speak exactly in favour of my opinion.

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No it does not. The quote says "The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring". After the destruction of the Ring (when it fell into the fires of Orodruin) Sauron could not reform. _After_ the destruction of the Ring. Sauron was a disembodied spirit from the end of the Second Age when the Ring was cut off his hand until ca. TA 1100 when he reformed and took up his abode in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. JRRT, the author, who wrote the book and should know, says of Sauron: "The form that he took was that of a man".

As he could not gain his previous shape (that of a human body), he chose the form which a lot of the characters are describing to have seen on one or another occasion of "meeting" Sauron - Boromir, Frodo, Gandalf, Galadriel, Pippin, Aragorn).

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He could regain his 'previous human shape'. Indeed the author says exactly that in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man".

I have to run off to work now , but the quotes I promissed are in fact the words of the above enlisted LOTR characters who speak of the "EYE" that they saw.

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JRRT writes of the form that Sauron took: "The form that he took was that of a man".
JRRT even drew a picture of Sauron in a sketch for a dust jacket of RotK. The drawing quite clearly shows a hand, arm, shoulder and head with a red eye on the right side (the drawing is in profile). See JRR Tolkien Artist and Illustrator picture 181.

Lhunithiliel, none of the characters mentioned in your above post actually MET Sauron in person, they saw a vision of the Eye, or the awareness of Sauron, NOT his physical form. As I said before, the Eye is more of a literary device used by Tolkien to show the awareness of Sauron, a symbol if you like to show that the characters were aware of him and that he was alert to them. Most of these encounters also appeared either in dreams of visions.
Besides which, if you really insist on being literal about it then refer to the passage on the slopes of Caradhras;

'His arm has grown long indeed' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here, three hundred leagues away'

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To take that as anything but a figure of speech, is to believe that Sauron's physical arm can reach all the way from Mordor to the Misty Mountains, which is clearly ridiculous.
Yes Sauron did take a long time to recover his form after the ring was cut from his finger, but he had done so by the time of the Hobbit, at which time the White Council drove him out of Dol Guldur, and therefore was physically incarnated at the time of the War of the Ring.
Aslo don't forget that the Eye was the symbol that Sauron used for his forces, rather like Aragorn's black standard with it's device of a white tree, seven stars and the crown of Gondor. It was used to identify Sauron's forces, as opposed to Sauman's which bore the sign of the white hand.

Lhunithiliel:
Are you disagreeing with Tolkien??
It seems pretty clear from his literary works and his "Letters", that Sauron was indeed physical during the third age, and ever more, that his form was "that of man shape".
It seems to me that what is metaphor you take as an actual meaning..
What possible advantage would Sauron obtain by becoming a physical Lidless eye...so he could search Middle-earth for his ring easier? I doubt he would need to physically become a Lidless eye to do this...

We have this quote:

The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic

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Then just above it, in the exact same paragraph, we have this:

In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner.

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Now, the struggle between Aragorn and Sauron with their Palantiri was clearly a third age event.

To add we also have Gollum (A third age caracter ), who was actually tortured by Sauron.
Now whether it was physical or mental torture, Gollum saw Sauron, he saw the four fingers..he saw the physical man shaped Sauron and his fingers.

Tokien directly states many times in his Letters, that Sauron did infact take physical form after his disembodiment from Isildur cutting the ring from his finger.
Note that in his "Letters", we get good answers, and no misleading metaphor's.

Tolkien also does not say (from what i can remember anyway) in his letters, that Sauron actually took the form of a Lidless eye.

Alot of Tolkien's Letters and the later volumes of the History of Middle-earth books have writings from JRR that are post Lord of the Rings. And since he changed his mind on a great many things after LotR was published, i tend to go with what his last thoughts were as fact.

Ah I'm late to one of my favorite topics.

But just to add my opinion. Yes Sauron was physical again in the Third Age (and not as an Eye). The destruction of the Ring (not loss) prohibited his "rebuilding". Sauron was a self-incarnate and his body, the form of a Man as said, was (ultimately) physical enough and destructible in the Third Age.

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Editing in:

I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." ~ JRRT 1957

"-- or rather this story exhibits 'myth' passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will rise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy; ..." ~ JRRT

"The form that he took was that of a man".

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Be sure, I have learned this line by heart!

OK, so when I'm wrong - I'm wrong! I'm not afraid to admit it!
And I am NOT oposing Tolkien, of course, either!
*and runs to read the book more carefully... *
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Say, have you heard a saying "A cat never falls on its back" ?
Meaning that though I accept the truth of your quotes, somewhere deep in my mind I feel I still have what to add to my defence.. LOL!!!
I shall have to "dig" deeper...for the right evidences.

Let it not sound as a silly excuse, but I was very short of time, which did ot give me the chance to "dig" for some quotes.
However, I'd like to add a few aspects on the discussion WITHOUT quotes.
You stated that Sauron recovered his human form basing your argument on the quote from one of Tolkien's letters

Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man".

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Good. Now, can you provide a quote directly from the Silmarillion (considered as the "FINAL" version of the story) where it is PARTICULARLY said what EXACT form the Dark Lord had? For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements... And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.

Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron? He was a Maia and a powerful one. And as all the Maiar, Sauron could chose the form he appeared in front of his allies and/or enemies. That's why he is "seen" or "felt" in different ways. But the "lidless eye surrounded by flames" was a picture a lot of the LOTR characters saw in their encounters with Sauron. Although I can not now provide the exact quotes but I remember well an extract (if not mistaken in the ROTK) where the Orcs as well spoke about this image of the burning eye watching from the top of the tower. This is the image Frodo saw in his dreams, the image Aragorn saw in the Palantir, and I recall Gandalf and Boromir speaing about this particular image as well. (AGAIN! sorry for not having had the time to find those quotes!).

The point is - where in the Silmarillion is it PRECISELY specified what form Sauron had? OR / AND was that the ONLY form he had?

As for the "eye" being a symbol etc., no doubt of that. But this is an entirely other issue of discussion, that perhaps could be called - "What does one or another Tolkien-created character represent?"

Since Tolkien desired to keep his Third Age Dark Lord 'offstage' in a storial way, a certain lack of a lot of easy, clear description of his actual 'body' is not unexpected. Tolkien's storial approach to a 'shadowy' Sauron was masterful, but that doesn't mean there was no physicality present from a mythological point of view. Why not include Tolkien explaining his Mythology out of story, as in Letters where he can speak more plainly?

For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements... And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.

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Tolkien is actually very consistent on this point and is consistent with published works. Why assume Gollum's description was not about something physical?

Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron?

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But we are talking about a physical, destructible body. That is the type described by the author; the same type of body Sauron physically fought with at the Last Alliance could be ultimately rebuilt in the Third Age, and was (only that it took longer).

The point is - where in the Silmarillion is it PRECISELY specified what form Sauron had? OR / AND was that the ONLY form he had?

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What 'precisely' in LOTR conflicts with Tolkien's explanation elsewhere of a 'bodied' 'incarnate' Sauron JRRT chose those words, despite that Sauron is not a natural incarnate.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Now, can you provide a quote directly from the Silmarillion (considered as the "FINAL" version of the story) where it is PARTICULARLY said what EXACT form the Dark Lord had?

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The Silmarillion is considered the final form of what story, and by whom?

For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements...

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In LotR Gollum speaks of Sauron's hand, with only four fingers on it. Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?
In a sketch JRRT drew for a cover of RotK Sauron was pictured as shaped like a 'man' (see above post for citation).

And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.

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The Silmarillion was the final version of what?

Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron?

No. Only his 'human' form would be an 'embodiment'.

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Tar-Elenion: Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?

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Well, now! Are we going to discuss in a civilized manner or use mockery in order to look more convincing in our arguments?

Tar-Elenion: The Silmarillion is considered the final form of what story, and by whom?

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I' ll quote from the book:

The Silmarillion, now published four years after the death of its author, is an account of the Elder Days, or the First Age of the World.

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and a bit further:

...But it was far indeed from being a fixed text, and did not remain unchanged even in certain fundamental ideas concerning the nature of the world it portrays; while the same legends came to be retold in longer and shorter forms, and in different styles. As the years passed the changes and variants, both in detail and in larger perspectives, became so complex, so pervasive, and so many-layered that a final and definitive version seemed unattainable. Moreover the old legends ('old' now not only in their derivation from the remote First Age, but also in terms of my father's life) became the vehicle and depository of his profoundest reflections. In his later writing mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations: from which arose incompatibilities of tone.

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And so on. You have the book - it is all on the starting pages.

I, however, should correct myself - Not only the Silmarillion I had in mind but also the other main books (LOTR and the Hobbit). If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so! The LETTERS, you so many times refer to, are just to reveal the course of creation of one or another character, the author's opinions on what he was creating, the desire to share these opinions and comment on them. The content of the Letters, however, can hardly be accepted as the FINAL decision of how exactly this or another character would be presented in the main stroy.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


In LotR Gollum speaks of Sauron's hand, with only four fingers on it. Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?

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Gollums words don't need to mean that Sauron really had a body, Gollum could have meant it mental if you understand what I mean.

Sauron lost power when he was destroyed in the Atalante, couldn't he had lost so mutch power when the ring was taken away by Isildur and he was defeated that he couldn't take shape again?

Lhunithiliel:

If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so!

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This has already been done.
1. Gollum's account of his time in Barad-dur within the presence of Sauron, which is in The Two Towers. (quote found elsewhere in this thread)
2. The dust jacket for RotK illustrated by JRR Tolkien himself depicting a "human form" Sauron on the cover.

Buu:
Gollum's words seem more "real" than metaphorical. Plus the fact that his words match up with ancient history when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand three thousand years prior.
Now Gollum, or rather, Smeagol would have heard the story of Sauron's defeat in the Last Alliance i'd say. But, i do not think he would have heard that the ring was cut from Sauron's hand. Such information is insignificant to lesser people, all they needed to know was that Sauron was defeated and all is well.

There have been numerous quotes in this thread taken from a huge variety of Tolkien's work, stating Sauron took shape again in Middle-earth during the third age.
Please read them if you havent...

I see you prefer having a "quotes-battle"!

Why! Thank you! I was worried I could not find the right quotes and they have been right under my nose all the time! Provided by YOU!

Frodo, when wearing the Ring on Amon Hen, experiences this;
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was.

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And another:

The FOTR- The Mirror of Galadriel,
“The eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened in a pit, a window into nothing.

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Clear!

On the other hand, how about the other quotes provided. I did read them but they do NOT say anything specific about the shape Sauron had.
Let's see:

Letter 246
Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.

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Mind It! SHOULD BE thought of as very terrible! I take that as an evidence that he could take ANY shape he wished in different circumstances.

Another quote, providing the same evidence - there is NO specification of Sauron's ONE and ONLY form in the LOTR-book:

Letter 200:
After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).

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"Re-build" - Into what shape? Does it specify? It could be ANY he chose!

Or still further:

Gandalf at the Council of Elrond:
Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer inDol Guldur, and secretly explored its ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other thanSauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.

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"Taking shape and power again" - What shape? Does he specify?

So, I do think that although in some written sources the author stated his vision about Sauron's form of appearance, in the main book he left this not specified. And I think that was extremely clever and thoughtfull - Sauron could be seen in different shapes and forms BECAUSE he chose to do so.

there was an Eye in that tower that did not sleep

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This does not necessarily mean an eye was floating around the tower, could it not refer to the fact that as a Maiar, Sauron did not require sleep, and therefore was always alert. It's no different to me saying to my children 'I've got my eye on you'. A metaphor. I also recall vaguely a comment that Sauron had many ears, but it never occurred to me to take this literally. Tolkien could have said in that sentence that Frodo 'felt the focus of Sauron's mind searching mentally for him', but it certainly wouldn't have been so gripping as the image of the eye searching. Plus if you take that quote completely literally, you would have to admit that Sauron also had a finger, which in turn implies a hand, arm and the rest of a human body. Just because all that is seen in Visions is Sauron's eye, does not mean that there is nothing else there.

I take your point that Sauron could have taken any shape he wanted, and that it is not specifically specified which shape he had taken during the war of the ring. But as his normal incarnate form over the millennia had been that of a man, (the Sil states also that when the Ainur took mortal appearance they were humanoid, if elven instead of human), it seems reasonable to me to assume that this is the form that he took once more. After all, he could have appeared as a spotted tadpole if he wanted, but it wouldn't have helped much. I'm honestly not mocking here, but it seems only logical to me that he would have chosen the most practical form available, and if he wanted to wear the ring, he would need a hand.

Practically speaking as well, if Sauron was incarnated as a man when Isildur cut the ring from his finger, and his power was so much diminished by that maiming, it also occurs to me that he may have been unable to take any other form until he regained the ring, I mean we already know that he was unable to take 'fair' form again after being caught in the downfall of Numenor, so why not a further limitation when his power was so drastically curtailed? Just a random thought there, nothing to back it up I'm afraid.

And suddenly he felt the Eye.

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Felt the eye. This would be the same feeling anyone would get when you think someone is watching you, its an awkward kind of feeling. But when you feel this do you think some giant eye is hiding somewhere watching you? no you wouldn't.

Lhunithieliel, what do you make of the dust jacket illustrated by Tolkien for the Return of the King?
The illustration was of Sauron himself in a humaniod form. Now thats some hard evidence right there.
Sorry i can't provide a link or anything to the cover art, but i have seen it online before, i'll have a search around for it and post it up if i come across it.

In reference to the Eye actually being in the tower: I think Sauron's spiritual form was still quite intact, but he could not form a visible humanoid form powerful enough to withstand, for example, a direct attack of Barad-Dûr. Ofcourse, he had sentinels and captains and chieftains keeping coinstant watch, but they are not Sauron himself. What I'm trying to say is that that IMO Sauron had enough regained power (regeneration? Could be) to form a sort of terrifying mental image when observed by others, but could not create a visible, touchable, material form in the Seen world.

That is exactly what I am beginning to believe. And to back this up, since his servants could not really see him he had his one main captain, The Mouth of Sauron, to speak for him.