S01 Season 1 Episode 3: Adar

Eljorahir · Sep 11, 2022

Vilisse said:
"So fair and foul a day I have not seen."

"Fair is foul, and foul is fair."

Google tells me this is from "Macbeth". Though maybe it has also been said by a baseball game announcer.

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
I will respect this, but please reconsider this with your team.

Personally, the Enting also thinks the time will come to leave off the 'spoilers' thing.
Soon everyone will be familiar enough with the characters, plot (or lack thereof), events unfolding, etc. that it just won't matter any more. Things will 'fit in place' so easily that talking openly totally makes sense.

Even now, its getting hard to distinguish what 'a spoiler' is, and is not.

Perhaps the best angle is just to stick much under the 'spoiler' tags.

Meanwhile, the Enting holds to "There is much to be said for saying little."

Meteor Man will be a topic of interest on which I will speak when the time is right, for example.

Erestor Arcamen · Sep 11, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
I will respect this, but please reconsider this with your team.
Doesn't really make any sense.
We should talk freely here, and whoever didn't watched the episode, should just stay out of the thread until he/she watched it.
I did that for this episode, for example.
I just didn't entered here to read, until I watched episode.

Also, even it's all with spoilers here, why would anyone, who didn't watched episode would want to read thread full with spoilers?
Again, doesn't really makes much sense.

More logical to me, would that spoilers needs to be in the rest of the forum, so somebody don't accidentally be spoiled but not here, where we can avoid topic if not wanting to ruin first watch.

Yeah it was more of an at first thing for yinz all to get used to the format but I agree, it's not really necessary for the individual episode threads, I was trying to be overly considerate and taking extra precautions. I'd say for the main discussion threads we should still use them for spoilers but here in the episode threads not so much. If you want to feel free but I don't think it's necessary. And I did add the word "Spoilers" to the section title so it should be obvious.

Annatar · Sep 11, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
We have learned that harfuts are so cruel in their core, and coldblooded, they left their weak members who can't keep up with the rest of the tribe, to terrible destiny.
(reminder that Tolkien wrote directly opposite, on why Gandalf liked the hobbits (apart from their usual cuteness), is because of the great winter when he saw them dying in an attempt to save each-other).
Apart from being opposite to Tolkien, it doesn't make any sense that tribe should act that way, because it's in contrast to the core survival of the tribe. Long story short: Any tribe that acts this way ,will going to kill itself.

That's exactly how it is. One wonders how such obvious inconsistencies can pass. Does Amazon not have internal reviews or "quality gates"?

Áramandë Amaniel · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
That's exactly how it is. One wonders how such obvious inconsistencies can pass. Does Amazon not have internal reviews or "quality gates"?

Condemn me if you will, but does the entire world have enough "quality gates"?

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
Does Amazon not have internal reviews or "quality gates"?

Such a statement assumes that if they did, (which frankly I suspect only that they MAY), there would be an intention to apply them.
But we really must ask how many films or screenwriters ever really think what they write through to its logical conclusions.
Or how many authors, even the best ones, do, for that matter.

Not justifying the obvious problems with so blatant an arrogance (or ignorance) as is attributed to the halflings here - just saying there's not a book or story written, nor move made, that doesn't contain equal contributions to stupidity in one way or another.

Annatar · Sep 11, 2022

Well, in any normal company that has reached a certain size, there are quality controls and reviews. It's not like this is a novel by a single person, who can naturally make mistakes. We have a huge corporation here and the biggest series budget ever. Under these conditions, it's completely incomprehensible to me how such serious mistakes can happen. In episode 3, nothing about the "Hobbits" makes any sense at all, even if you ignore the books completely. And even children notice this.

I mean, there's a big difference between a) being a matter of taste, or b) just lore violations, or c) just being unbelievable or annoying, or d) being completely contradictory, illogical, and moronic.
This is all at once.

And someone who leaves a companion behind because of bees and then makes fun of him by saying that he was an idiot anyway is not really better than an orc, I would think....

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
such serious mistakes

Annatar, I love you. I really do.
But I remain curious about your confusion regarding perspectives.
From your perspective (and mine) we tend to look at these things as 'mistakes'.
But... what if... now bear with me here... WHAT IF.... these, from their perspectives, are not mistakes at all, but are intentional?
Let's face it... the goals, objectives and targets we and they have are completely different, with very little commonality and very few conjoining points between them.
So from the outset, we find a thankfulness for whatever DOES happen to coincide, rather than a dissatisfaction from all that cannot.
(Note - I am well acquainted with the terms 'will' and "can" which cover issues of 'permission vs. 'ability' respectively, and always use them appropriately.)

d4rk3lf · Sep 11, 2022

One thing I haven't seen anyone noticed in the reviews is huge time/event inaccuracy.

I am not good in remembering years, but by the time Ar-Farazon lives, shouldn't the (all) rings already being forged for couple of hundreds years already?
And yet, in episode 2, we saw Celebrimbor just preparing to build a forge for it.

Annatar · Sep 11, 2022

Well-aged Enting said:
But... what if... no bear with me here... WHAT IF.... these, from their perspectives, are not mistakes at all, but are intentional?

You'll have to help me out with that now.
My opinion so far has been that Amazon primarily wants to make money (and of course also put some ideology into it, but that's rather irrelevant at this point).

So the most important goal of Amazon with this series from their perspective should be:
- to find new customers
- to bring them all to Amazon
- and to bind as many new customers as possible.
Somehow this reminds me of the Ring Verse. 🧐 But anyway, how are they going to accomplish this if they - in your opinion intentionally - include such crap?

d4rk3lf said:
One thing I haven't seen anyone noticed in the reviews is huge time/event inaccuracy.

I am not good in remembering years, but by the time Ar-Farazon lives, shouldn't the (all) rings already being forged for couple of hundreds years already?
And yet, in episode 2, we saw Celebrimbor just preparing to build a forge for it.

The 3441 years of the Second Age were apparently boiled down to 10-20 years or so.

Goldilocks Gamgee · Sep 11, 2022

Eljorahir said:
I'm thinking Halbrand looks fair but feels foul. He seemed to go full blown out of control berserk in the alleyway fight scene. Me thinks him not nice man.

Well, he makes it clear that he does not want to, unless given no other choice. My theory is that he's Sauron, because that would be epic, but I'm pretty sure he won't be. Mostly because Adar is pretty clearly Sauron, and he is shown to have long black hair.

d4rk3lf · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
Well, in any normal company that has reached a certain size, there are quality controls and reviews.

We are going of-topic here, but I'll say this.

I have a friends working vfx for big movies, and works for big companies, and one of the reason Hollywood gives us this bad movies and series, for the lsast 15 years, is because they become very closed entity with no or little influence from real world.
You got a job as a writer, not because you're good writer, but because you "know someone, who knows someone, who knows someone...".
They have their little parties, with white powder involved, that creates new friendships (and relations), that can get you a job, or can get you a new job as a writer, even you screw the old one.
They are just very closed... knows each other.. gives jobs to each other.
Not that they couldn't find better writers if they wanted. They could. But that is how corruption works.

That's one part of the medal.
Second part of the medal is simply washing money.
I've heard stories where they forced modelers to 3D model lock inside the doors (even it's never seen in the movie, and door explodes), and when modelers ask "Why model something you can't even see in the movie", they get reply that they are payed by hours, and should just do their job without asking too much questions.
All these hours (zhat are payed not so well) are nice to be shown to any tax inspections, and to avoid taxes, and who knows what other money washing techniques they have.

All in all, don't look on a advertised budget as something regular folks receives, because majority of people doesn't get 10th of that budget, it's spreaded towards big fishes internally, maybe some famous actors, and the little fish is working for pretty average salary.

@All
Sorry for off topic.

Annatar · Sep 11, 2022

Goldilocks Gamgee said:
Well, he makes it clear that he does not want to, unless given no other choice. My theory is that he's Sauron, because that would be epic, but I'm pretty sure he won't be. Mostly because Adar is pretty clearly Sauron, and he is shown to have long black hair.

In the meantime there are some alleged insider-infos circulating. According to these, Halbrand is indeed Sauron, while Adar is supposed to be an Elf and maybe even a brother of Galadriel. Of course, these rumors can also be complete nonsense, but we will find out soon.

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
You'll have to help me out with that now.

I'll do my best.
Their original effort included to try to do what they were doing without alienating the 'die-hard fans' of Tolkien (as they were called.)
But from their very first releases, they saw that they were doing exactly that, no matter what they thought they were achieving.
But what they ALSO saw, was the huge opportunity that all the controversy was stirring up.
And that itself presented the greatest advertising platform they could possibly have dreamed of achieving.
Not being ignorant, they decided to capitalize on the greatest advertising and merchandising platform they could develop - the Tolkien base itself.

AND they were smart. They KNEW the die-hard fans would have to stick around to validate their suspicions... so they were at the very least an early initial base who would pay to see.
PLUS they knew the "fanfic" base would come, not knowing any better, and not fearing what they may learn.
AND they knew that many folks who only had the remotest idea about Tolkien would see the controversy, and they ALSO knew there's nothing like negativity to draw a huge crowd. Negativity is as much a force as gravity itself... drawing people like moths to a flame.

SO.. they've simply capitalized on contention and negativity, knowing that, especially at this time in history, it's the greatest social force afoot among mankind.

And they desperately need as much short-term revenue to cover the costs of this as they can get. Even with their deep pockets this is not a small investment.
These folks are not dumb.

And it is for this reason I maintain "we must enjoy it for what it is (if we're going to enjoy it at all) and not for what it is not."

I guess that's about the best help I can give.

Annatar · Sep 11, 2022

Well-aged Enting said:
Negativity is as much a force as gravity itself... drawing people like moths to a flame.

An interesting theory. Do I think it is conclusive? I can't say for sure yet. But I'll think about it...
As far as the concrete example from above is concerned, I'm of the opinion, as I said, that even non-Tolkien fans will notice it very negatively.
But your theory would then be that the series is just deliberately made mediocre, with some good and many bad elements, to keep the series in the public eye, right?
Nevertheless, one must also ask oneself whether, given the high budget, a really well-done series would not have been possible, too, in order to attract even more people without controversy? Or is that no longer possible or even desirable in our modern, nihilistic world? Well, now it's getting philosophical, but I think you'll have to find an answer to that to support your theory.

Well-aged Enting said:
And it is for this reason I maintain "we must enjoy it for what it is (if we're going to enjoy it at all) and not for what it is not."

If I were a Tolkien ignoramus, I'd probably tune out now, but as an (apparently slightly masochistically inclined) Tolkien fan, I'm having fun enduring this agony, talking about it, and making fun of it. So in that respect I agree with you that Tolkien fans do get very annoyed, but watch it anyway. 😄
However, it's also quite likely that many have already cancelled their Amazon Prime account because of this...

Ealdwyn · Sep 11, 2022

So I just watched ep3.

I found Galadriel in Numenor a bit incongruous, but I really loved the look of Numenor and I liked the way they portrayed the internal politics re the Kings Men and the Faithful.

I liked the introduction of Elendil, who feels right for the role, but Isildur and Anarion felt a bit forced. There was no point other than to name drop, it didn’t further the plot in any way. I hope that in later episodes the writers give them a reason to be there.

I’m not sure about Miriel and Pharazon. Nothing major to dislike, but I don’t love the characterisation either. However, the Numenor scenes in general seem better written and plotted than anything we saw last week.

The orc design and the wargs looked good, but the rest of the digging scenes were a bit boring. I couldn’t see the point in them. And there seems little logic in using tunnels for the orcs to move about by stealth when they’re leaving a clear trail of destruction on the surface that anyone with eyes could follow.

It's dissappointing that the Numenorians – the "tall sea kings" – look exactly like anyone else. I know that at this time they had started to diminish, in stature and in lifespan, but they should still look noticeably different to ordinary men from M-E.

Every scene with the proto-hobbits in it was AWFUL. No furthering of plot or character. Just pointless. And that dreadful Oirish accent. *sigh*

All in all, an improvement on last week.... but they need to ditch the hobbits.

I love the idea that Halbrand might be Sauron, as a couple of people have suggested. You may be on to something there.

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
We are going of-topic here, but I'll say this.

I think maybe not too far off-topic, as it all serves to help explain what's going on with the thing.
It may be coming from a somewhat cynical or skeptical base - both yours and mine - but I think it's not too far off the mark.
That said, it's all still what underlies it, and leaves us with the only option we have.
"To enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it is not."

We are just recipients of whatever the driving forces are, and will ne'er be otherwise.

Goldilocks Gamgee · Sep 11, 2022

Ealdwyn said:
The orc design and the wargs looked good, but the rest of the digging scenes were a bit boring. I couldn’t see the point in them. And there seems little logic in using tunnels for the orcs to move about by stealth when they’re leaving a clear trail of destruction on the surface that anyone with eyes could follow.

I figured the tunnels were there so that nobody would know where they would expect next. And to shield them from the sunlight, though it seems to affect them much more than it affected even normal orcs in LotR.

I felt really bad for the warg, though. It was kind of adorable, until it killed the poor woman. And even then, like, it's not its fault that the orcs keep him half-starved, so that he would attack at any chance of food.

Oh, yeah, I forgot the spoiler thing.

Ealdwyn · Sep 11, 2022

Well-aged Enting said:
I'll do my best.
Their original effort included to try to do what they were doing without alienating the 'die-hard fans' of Tolkien (as they were called.)
But from their very first releases, they saw that they were doing exactly that, no matter what they thought they were achieving.
But what they ALSO saw, was the huge opportunity that all the controversy was stirring up.
And that itself presented the greatest advertising platform they could possibly have dreamed of achieving.
Not being ignorant, they decided to capitalize on the greatest advertising and merchandising platform they could develop - the Tolkien base itself.

AND they were smart. They KNEW the die-hard fans would have to stick around to validate their suspicions... so they were at the very least an early initial base who would pay to see.
PLUS they knew the "fanfic" base would come, not knowing any better, and not fearing what they may learn.
AND they knew that many folks who only had the remotest idea about Tolkien would see the controversy, and they ALSO knew there's nothing like negativity to draw a huge crowd. Negativity is as much a force as gravity itself... drawing people like moths to a flame.

SO.. they've simply capitalized on contention and negativity, knowing that, especially at this time in history, it's the greatest social force afoot among mankind.

And they desperately need as much short-term revenue to cover the costs of this as they can get. Even with their deep pockets this is not a small investment.
These folks are not dumb.

And it is for this reason I maintain "we must enjoy it for what it is (if we're going to enjoy it at all) and not for what it is not."

I guess that's about the best help I can give.

I can sort of see what WA Enting is saying: they were guaranteed an initial audience.
But the problem is that audiences these days are very fickle. There's a lot of TV shows competing for attention, and if the series doen't start delivering quickly and consistently then that audience is going disappear overnight.

Goldilocks Gamgee said:
I figured the tunnels were there so that nobody would know where they would expect next.

But if they can see where the tunnels are, then they've only got to dig through the roof of the tunnels to stop the orcs moving along them. Job done.

Ent · Sep 11, 2022

Annatar said:
But your theory would then be that the series is just deliberately made mediocre,

I don't know that I would say - "deliberately" - as a theory - though I suppose in the end it boils down to the same thing.
I do believe once they recognized the great increase in revenue controversy would bring, they altered their original intentions in favor of less concern for integrity and more for what they considered 'story'.

They did not need to think beyond that... it just naturally brings its own results - in virtually every arena of the work.

S01 Season 1 Episode 3: Adar

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