🕷️Shelob question

[_postman]

Hello

I'd like to ask two questions if I may: how old was Aragorn when he got married, and did Shelob perish at the end? I have the impression, right or wrong, that Shelob is independent of Sauron and so when his plans are thwarted is does not matter one way or the other to her. Since Tolkien does not say she dies - as he surely would have done if she had - does that mean she lives despite the destruction of Mordor?

Many thanks

_postman

 

[baragund]

Hi there, Postman!

Shelob is indeed independent of Sauron, just as her mother Ungoliant was independent of Sauron's master Morgoth. Here is a great passage from "Shelob's Lair" in ROTK:

There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

"...for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness." Whew! Talk about a description so vivid it hits you like getting clobbered in the head with a 2x4.

As to Shelob's fate, we have this from "The Choices of Master Samwise" after Sam let her have it with Sting:

Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell.

As to when Aragorn got married, take a look at Appendix B of LOTR, The Tale of Years for the Third Age. There you will see that Aragorn met Arwen in Lothlorien in the year TA 2980 and they "plight their troth" (get engaged). They don't get married until after the Ring is destroyed and Sauron is vanquished, TA 3019.

A 39 year engagement! Their wedding planner must have been a basket case by the time they got around to tying the knot...

 

[_postman]

Hello Baragund

Many thanks for your helpful post!

So if the 'take does not tell', we do not know if Shelob survives. My own guess is that she does - maybe for future battles ahead.

If you consider the scene of Sam's conflict with Shelob - the intensity of the tone is unrivalled in the book - it appears to me that Tolkien sees Shelob as the real enemy of Eru. I suggest that because Shelob (or her mother) was an aide of Melkor while, on the other hand, Sauron is only an emissary - one of many.

In other words, in terms of evil, Shelob is on a far higher level that Sauron and because evil is necessary for future battles, she is, in fact, allowed to live by the author.

What do you think of that hypothesis!? Or do you think Sauron the bigger threat?

Cheers

_postman

 

[YayGollum]

Craziness. Sauron is easily the larger threat, primarily because he's more active. Every giant spider that the Tolkien dude wrote about was all about neutrality. Ungoliant kept to herself until Mel, an old singing buddy, offered her some candy for helping her pull some weeds, the giant spiders in Mirkwood were minding their own business until people walked directly into their webs, and Shelob actually made friends with people who weren't violent. Sauron stuck with Mel through all kinds of things popularly seen as evil. He had all kinds of fun with it, even honored the dude by inventing a religion for him. I'm figuring that Shelob only seemed especially intense because the Tolkien dude had to condense a lot of awesome into not a lot of space, since Sauron was the more important antagonist.

 

[baragund]

I have to agree with Yay.

Like her mother Ungoliant, Shelob did not strive to rule over others and impose her will like Morgoth and Sauron did. Now I don't know if this makes Shelob less evil than Sauron but it certainly makes her lazier.

Shelob would be content to devour every living thing in Arda... if they were brought to her. She lacked the motivation, skills, leadership, etc. to go hunt the more succulent living things so she made do with whatever wandered into her warren of caves and tunnels.

Again, Shelob was no more Sauron's aide or servant than Ungoliant was an aide to Morgoth. Both relationships were partnerships for mutual benefit and convenience. Sauron and Morgoth had absolutely no control over their arachnid partners.

As to who is the bigger threat and the "real" enemy of Eru, well, I would suggest that neither is a threat to Eru. They would be no more a threat to Eru than you or I would be a threat to God. Eru created them and he had a purpose for them. Take a look in the Ainulindale in the published Silmarillion. When Melkor was causing such a hubbub in the first playing of the music, Eru said basically that there is nothing Melkor can do that was not part of Eru's plan. Same would go for Ungoliant or her offspring. They can't harm Eru no matter what they do.

So the question really is who would be a bigger threat to people like you and me. I would say Sauron. Even though he was harmed much more by the destruction of the Ring than Shelob was harmed by Sting, his entire purpose for being is to rule over others. Sooner or later he will manifest himself in some fashion and try to force his will on others. Shelob on the other hand will simply go back to brooding in her cave and eat whatever comes by.

 

[HLGStrider]

Also, there is nothing to suggest that Shelob was "immortal." Unlike Sauron who reshaped and reformed himself multiple times, if you kill off Shelob once, she isn't going to pop back up slightly reinvented like a character from "Heroes" two episodes later.

We are left with intentional doubt as to her ultimate fate. It has been hypothesized elsewhere that she would ultimately run out of things to eat up in that out of the way tunnel once there was no longer a steady stream of orcs to hunt. I really don't see humans repopulating Mordor any time soon, nor if they did would Cirith Ungol be their choice path, so unknown wildlife of the high mountains aside, she would either have to move or starve in a few months. A creature like Shelob is ruled entirely by her stomach. She would creep down sooner or later and perhaps run afoul of a Ranger hunting party.

Like I said, not immortal, and considering the small, ill-prepared Sam caused her great pain with what was essentially a glorified Elven pocket knife, I would bet anything that a fighter with better training and weapons could put an end to her.

As long as the man does not walk unaware into her webs and sting, that is.

 

[baragund]

"...glorified Elven pocket knife..." Hee, Hee... Great description Elgee! That tickled my funny bone...

 

[Bucky]

Shelob is a threat to NOTHING that doesn't cross her path when she's hungry.....

Sauron is out to rule the world....

Get real.

 

[alpheyt]

i think you will find that it says she dies(where i do not know!)

 

[HLGStrider]

Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell.

Actually, this is the last quote involving Shelob's fate within the LotRs, so it really doesn't say for sure she dies. Just that it is possible that she might still be out there . . . and hungry.

 

[Alcuin]

how old was Aragorn when he got married...?

Just a quick note on Aragorn’s age when he married Arwen.

“Tale of Years”, Appendix B of Return of the King, says Aragorn was born on March 1 of III 2931. His 88th birthday was the day he, Legolas and Gimli unexpectedly met Gandalf the White in Fangorn Forest and at first mistook him for Saruman: when Gandalf speaks elliptically to the three of them, Aragorn complains,

“In one thing you have not changed, dear friend,” said Aragorn: “you still speak in riddles.”

“What? In riddles?” said Gandalf. “No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying.” …

“I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses,” said Aragorn.

The “Men of the Ancient Houses” to whom Aragorn refers are not the Edain of Beleriand, to whom Aragorn would likely have been old (Bëor the Old died aged 93), but rather the Men of Númenor, who often lived to see a third century, as did Aragorn, who eventually died aged 210. (That’s the date in “Tale of Years”. As an aside, in at least one late drafts, Aragorn’s age at death is listed as 198 years. Tolkien’s practice was to use the published material in preference to draft material when discrepancies arose, so I think we can safely use 210 years as the length of his life.)

Appendix A says that,

Aragorn indeed lived to be two hundred and ten years old, longer than any of his line since King Arvegil; but in Aragorn Elessar the dignity of the kings of old was renewed.

(Just an aside: my own count, based upon Peoples of Middle-Earth, “The Heirs of Elendil”, which lists years for the births and deaths of every king of Arnor and Gondor, indicates that Celebrindor was the last king of Arnor to live to age 210; Arvegil, six generations later, lived to age 190. Hammond and Scull in Reader’s Companion note that this passage originally gave Aragorn’s age as 190 years; this was altered in the Ballantine (paperback) editions in 1966, but not in the “primary” (hardback) HarperCollins editions until 1994.)

Elrond told Aragorn that he could not consent to marriage between Arwen and Aragorn unless Aragorn was king of both Arnor and Gondor. Aragorn was King of Arnor by birth; he was acclaimed King of Gondor by the people of Minas Tirith and crowned by Gandalf on May 1. He married Arwen on Mid-summer Day. He was still 88 years old.