Should they have given 🧝Arwen the extra scene?

[Harad]

As you know I do not argue that point. The upshot is that PJ wanted to flesh out Arwen at the expense of that one scene of Frodos. Its true..its done...we live with it.

Frodo's character, however, survives in good stead. He remains the main character and soldiers on bravely, despite.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Harad
As you know I do not argue that point. The upshot is that PJ wanted to flesh out Arwen at the expense of that one scene of Frodos. Its true..its done...we live with it.

Frodo's character, however, survives in good stead. He remains the main character and soldiers on bravely, despite.

I fully agree with you Harad. PJ wanted to flesh out Arwen at Frodo's expense. That one admission from you is telling though, because the change is significant enough to likely have merited JRRT's disapproval. And your statement gives credence (whether you like it or no) that the characterization was one that enhanced Arwen at a cost to Frodo. (One from which his character can survive.)

 

[Harad]

Whether JRRT would have liked it or not, I can not say.

Contrary to what some critics have suggested, Tolkien's letters make clear that he was eager to do business with the Lidless Eye of Hollywood, and had few illusions about the compromises that might be required.

from that article in the book forum. I am sure its arguable.

From the standpoint of everybody who saw the movie that was not a book wonk (shirley the majority), Arwen's plus was appreciated, and Frodo's minus was not noticed.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
From the standpoint of everybody who saw the movie that was not a book wonk (shirley the majority), Arwen's plus was appreciated, and Frodo's minus was not noticed.

Any non-Tolkienites probably couldn't have cared less who did what...they don't know any better...Glorfindel or some other nameless elf (even Arwen ) could have thrown Frodo on his horse and let the book play out and the ignorant public would have been just as pleased as punch...PJ could have pleased both sides...

It's the fan-base and purists who should have been catered too because they know and love the story....Some fat, nameless elf stuffing his face with lembas and farting elven tunes could have come and done it and the public would have thought that JRR was an interesting fellow to have characters like that.

Arwen's little role was far from creating audience enjoyment...Unless you're some lusty teenager who likes Liv Tyler...Steve Tyler's daughter...Jeeez, that right there should blow it...

 

[Grond]

Okay Thorin, you're just about over the line. Attacking PJ and Harad is one thing but taking it out on the beautiful and sultry Liv is unacceptable. You are nearing the point where you'll meet the business end of the "Malicious Mallet of Melkor". Assail anyone you desire.... except the beautiful Liv.

 

[Harad]

You downgrade everybody except a singular questionable taste. The movie was popular because it captured the essence of a popular work of fiction and was true to the spirit of it. If you think its so easy to make $700M (and counting) from a movie about Hobbits, make your own "Farting Elf Frolics" and get so rich you wont feel the need to complain anymore.

 

[madgonad]

Arwen has a greater purpose

Ignoring the fact that PJ wanted to make use of the hot and trendy actress that he cast, he has a good reason for changes he has made. Being male, like almost everyone else frequenting this board, I tend not to be sensitive to many issues. My wife, who has probably read every form of fantasy printed in the last fifty years, summed up LoTR very simply. Long, boring and sexist.
I of course have read it many times in the past twenty years, but her point is valid. The book's pacing is slow. Not too much action, and what action is present is glossed over. And summing up the female roles is pretty simple;

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins = haughty, bitchy hobbit
Arwen = hot elf standing by Aragorn in Rivendale and in the end at Minas Tirith
Galadriel = nice lady who wishes the travelers luck storming the castle.
Eowyn = allows the MacBeth-style slaying of the WitchKing Nazgul and provides a wedding to unite Gondor and Rohan.

That's it. The women of Tolkien. Obviously PJ wants to sell tickets to the other 52% of the population, so he is going to give Arwen and Eowyn a greater part. In fact, I could be wrong, but I can't remember any lines in the books for either character that weren't spoken to Argorn in a pleasing way.
Oh, and the Orc-pod scene - I interpreted that as how Saruman bred the Uruk-Hai from orcs and men. Lurtz being the featured Uruk-Hai.

 

[Harad]

Welcome Madgonad,

Youre onto something.

Plus fulfilling that noble purpose, "Arwen" was well done, and in the spirit of LOTR.

 

[Grond]

Awww Harad, anyone who agrees with you is "on to something". I think the film could have been truer to the original writing and still been a bang up box office success. Oh my goodness, I, too, am "on to something."

 

[Harad]

Awww Harad, anyone who agrees with you is "on to something".

Nice of you to say he was agreeing with me. I was agreeing with him.

Find somebody that you agree with and you too can be argeeable.

 

[Grond]

Harad, you and I have found much to agree upon lately. I guess that makes us agreeable to each other on some issues.

 

[Harad]

It true. Next, a tennis game!

When Thorin agrees with me, then my work will be done.

I will then join the Ann Rice forum and negotiate peace between the Anti- and Pro-Aaliyah forces.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
When Thorin agrees with me, then my work will be done.

Hah! Never!!! I'd rather die than see the ring on an elves fing...

Hmmm....Got carried away there by some sort of Dwarfish haughtiness. Where did that cheesy thought come from? I know it wasn't from Tolkien....Where the heck did I hear that?

 

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Thorin
Okay, I will say this....Because Arwen was needed to be in the movie more, she could have replaced Glorfindel and found the Company...I could live with that...But throw him on the horse and let the rest take it's course...The riding, the defiant, sword-raising ,. "if you want him...blah,blah" spell casting, tears in her eyes, "Hang on Frodo" healing crap was just plain overkill and that is what I have the most problem with.

I'm more or less happy with that statement. I don't personally have a problem with the 'riding, the defiant, sword-raising' myself - noone has convinced me that this definitely inconsistent with Tolkien's overall conception, even if it is not what was published. Same with the spell casting. I too wished Frodo had his defiant moment at the Fords, and you are right about the 'Hang on Frodo' stuff was just a bit cloying!

Originally posted by Thorin
it bothers me that for some reason I have to defend why it SHOULDN'T be in....Where the heck is the logic in that?

The reason is that you are attacking a film that many people really like. These people don't typically attack the book, therefore do not have defend themselves! Moreover you not only attack the film, you take up a tone that suggests that not only do you personally not like it, that there is something objectively wrong with it.

All the evidence is that there are very many devoted fans of the book who are really delighted with what PJ has done. So yes, I do think the onus is on you to back up your position. On the other hand, I'm perhaps less demanding than Harad. I don't expect you to agree with me on all points. I'd just like to get to a point where we can agree to differ, but feel like we get where the other person is coming from. Overall I'd say you feel as though PJ has let down the fans, and I don't think that's reasonable.

 

[Harad]

On the other hand, I'm perhaps less demanding than Harad. I don't expect you to agree with me on all points.

Do you seriously think I expect Thorin to agree with anything I say? He couldnt even agree that people outside America might not know what was posted in "7-11"s.

I am not arguing to convince the unconvinceable. If there is anybody else besides us reading these posts (how likely is that?) then I just do not want the record with his opinions left as objective facts: "JRRT would never..." "Arwen is inconsistent with JRRT characters..." and on and on and on.

Other movie bashers are even worse than Thorin in that they bash the movie for things that are IN the book (.e.g Elrond "letting" Isildur leave with the Ring) or for things that are otherwise "odd" in the book (the whole hilt-shard thread).

 

[Thorin]

And I for one, do not want to leave the threads without defending the book from all "should haves", "could haves" "it was in the spirit of Tolkien's characters" arguments that are used to justify PJ's creation and distortion of JRR's characters....

There are a lot of things that could have been in the spirit of Tolkien that would not be acceptable...Being in the "spirit of Tolkien" is a lame excuse to justify something that did not happen, nor was written that way....With that ridiculous argument, you could justify Aragorn directly attacking Sauron, Gandalf using the palantir, Galadriel taking out the orcs when Fellowship reaches Lorien, Galadriel taking and using the ring, and on and on and on....add all your own that could have been "in the spirit" of Tolkien and in-character....I highly suspect that even these changes could get the ire of all the FADs. The hard facts are that these things like XenArwen, though being in the "spirit" of Tolkien, are not Tolkien's LoTR as we know it...neither is PJ's Arwen.

The fact is, is that a movie claiming to be made from the book, and staying true to the book and not having major changes, should be held up to the standard from which it is made....Arwen and many other changes fall woefully short.....

Just admit you liked the part though it wasn't Tolkien, nor should have been put in, and I can accept that and we can put it all to rest....Keep needlessly justifying that foolish distortion of Arwen from a "spirit of Tolkien" perspective, and I will continue to defend ...

 

[Harad]

Another thing you dont understand is "spirit of Tolkien." For Arwen to become the hero of the story and kill Sauron would not be. For Arwen to do things that she might, had the character been filled out by JRRT (it wasnt), and take over some attributes of Glorfindel, thats just fine.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Harad
Another thing you dont understand is "spirit of Tolkien." For Arwen to become the hero of the story and kill Sauron would not be. For Arwen to do things that she might, had the character been filled out by JRRT (it wasnt), and take over some attributes of Glorfindel, thats just fine.

Oh my....Claiming what Arwen would have or could have been had Tolkien filled her out is appaling to say the least, especially considering that you get on my case for saying things like "JRR would never..."

Please...."had the character been filled out??" Had the character even been considered by JRR for the type of role that PJ used her for, and she was in the "spirit" of Tolkien's character, don't you think there would have been some extended role in LoTR that even remotely resembled PJ's Arwen? I think Tolkien had enough time and space to expand Arwen's role, never mind make her some sort of Elven warrior. The fact is, is that Tolkien could have expanded her role....he did not. And there is absolutely no evidence that had he expanded her role, she would have tracked Aragorn, replaced Glorfindel, challenged the Nazgul, brought the waves down by chanting a spell and then practically healing Frodo, or done anything like that....Your support is lacking (and trying to draw on the "spirit of Luthien" is feeble) and you are seriously grabbing at straws, Harad.

Once again, "might haves", "could haves" and "should haves" are a redundant argument. Especially to try and use Tolkien to justify a cinematically created character introduced solely for the purpose of:

1) kill two birds with one stone in terms of introducing characters
2) give the movie more pizazz and enhance the female roles

 

[Harad]

Arwen is a VERY minor character in the book. JRRT chose to do her that way. We dont know ANYTHING about her except the barest minimum. Does that mean that was all there was to her life?

The activities that she performed in the movie were all activities described in the book. IMO and that of many who enjoyed the movie, the composite character Arwen fit into the spirit of JRRT. I have at least as much insight into this as you do.

 

[Snaga]

Harad, you are mistaken: Thorin has a ouijah board I think!