Significance of 7?

[Anamatar IV]

i would like to know what is the significance of 7 in tolkien's books? The 7 fathers of the dwarves, the 7 gates of Gondolin, the 7 stars of the kings...

Could someone more learned in Tolkien-lore shed some light for me?

 

[Aulë]

Don't forget the 7 palantir, and the 7 dwarven rings...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

It was quite some time ago, when reading the UT and the Gondolin-relevant pieces from HoME, that I have been impressed by the same thing.
In our Guild I had long ago opened a thread about various questions : here is the link to it
And there I once put this question. Unfortunately, noone answered.

QUESTION?
What is it about the number “7” that is so often present in the tales and the stories about Gondolin ?

quote:
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From: "The Silmarillion:"Then Tuor looked down upon …… Gondolin the great, city of SEVEN names,
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quote:
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From: UT:
And one day, as Tuor sat upon the shore, he heard the rush and whine of great wings, and he looked up and saw SEVEN white swans flying in a swift wedge southward.
…… and he took the SEVEN feathers(of the swans) and set them in the crest of his helm……

Now Tuor journeyed south along the coast for full SEVEN days……

Voronwe: I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour SEVEN years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South……

"Yea, indeed," said Voronwë; "to a stranger it might seen that pride has made the servants of Turgon pitiless. Long and hard seem the leagues of the SEVEN Gates to the hungry an wayworn."

SEVEN great pillars of steel there were, tall with the height and girth of strong young trees, but ending in a bitter spike that rose to the sharpness of a needle; and between the pillars were SEVEN cross-bars of steel, and in each space SEVEN times SEVEN rods of steel upright, with heads like the broad blades of spears……..

…. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the SEVEN kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.
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quote:
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From "The Fall of Gondolin", LT:
And Ilfiniol was fain of that, but said he: 'It is amighty tale, and SEVEN times shall folk fare to the Tale-fire ere it be rightly told;

But now the men of Melko have assembled their forces, and
SEVEN dragons of fire are come with Orcs …….

Then said Idril: "Woe is me whose father awaiteth doom evenupon his topmost pinnacle; but SEVEN times woe whose lord hath gone down before Melko and will stride home no more!" ……

Now the Mountains or rather their lowest hills were on that side SEVEN leagues save a mile from Gondolin, …….

Of the wolfriders there were a score, and of the men that were about Earendel but six living = 7

Anamatar, I hope someone will give some comment on it this time!

 

[FoolOfATook]

Tolkien's Catholic faith is part of the answer here (Seven Deadly Sins, Seven Cardinal Virtues, On the seventh day God rested, etc.). Also, think about how often the number seven is used in lore- Seven Hills of Rome, The Seven Seas, The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and so forth.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I N T E R E S T I N G !!!!!!

Thank you!
It is true, when one thinks of it. In the folklore of my country, for example, the numbers 3 and 7 are to be seen quite often..... Mostly the "3", however!

I have heard and read a few things about those two numbers.... And it really makes my head dizzy Why 3 and 7???? Why not 4, 5...9??? Why both of these numbers are odd? Why even numbers are not considered "magical"....
It would be interesting to read the opinion of people who might have read more on this matter!

 

[Orodreth]

Don't forget, the Sicle of the Valar (big dipper i think) has seven stars in it, and it was made to show Morgoth's doom (even if his downfall was long after the Sicle was made). I think that is signifigant, and Tolkein couldn't have changed the number of stars in the big dipper. Or could he?

 

[Lantarion]

I have noticed that numbers like 3, 7 and 9 occur in relation to magical, mythological, or otherwise arcane topics. I do not kow the reason for this, but this view is rather Occidental: in China the numner 8 is an incredibly potent number which signifies 'luck'. The reason for this is that its pronunciation is very close to the Chinese word for 'Buddha' (fut, pronounced with a soft 'a' and a silent 't'). I have seen no reasons for the significant meanings of the numbers 3, 7 and 9; althuogh I also think them to be somehow special, thuogh I do not know why..

 

[elvish-queen]

Well, better than 6 eh?? Otherwise there would be more controversy about Tolkien than Potter!

 

[Rúmil]

7 is a very symbolic number in many cultures (and in the Bible!), and often evokes goodness. Mythographs have said that that is because it is such an interesting and 'complicated number: try and divide 10 by 7!

The use of the number 7 as a particularily relevant number is millennia old, there is really no telling why it was noticed in the first place.

 

[faila]

7 is considered the number of God or a holy number by all those of the christian faith, including catholics. SO I would assume that he might of derived it either intentionaly or unintentionally.

 

[Rangerdave]

I hate to be the one to offer up a practical explanation of things...

Has anyone ever considered that seven is the onlt single digit number in the English language that is multisylabic? It may be that Tolkien uses the word seven because it is much easier to place into verse than the others.

In short, it scans better.

just a thought
RD

 

[jallan]

The Great Dipper contains seven bright stars that rotate around the north pole, and were closer to the north pole in early historical times.

In Hindu mytholgy these are identified with the Seven Sages.

A group of Seven Sages also appear in Babylonian tradition and Greek tradition, though neither of these groups is connected with the stars

There are also the seven visible planets, as the Greeks called them, which we call the Sun, the Moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

These were connected symbolically with the seven common metals: gold, silver, copper, mercury, iron, tin, and lead.

The seven days of the week were named for the gods assocaited with seven planets.

Tolkien claims that the six-day Elvish week was expanded by the Númenoreans into a seven-day week.

The seven branched candalabra in the Jewish temple was probably associated with some of this symbolism.

The Greeks added two further strings to the early five-note lyre, these seven strings corresponding to the notes of the modern European seven-note scale, or close to it, depending on which of many modes the lyre was tuned to.

The numbers three, seven, and nine are generally found more often than any other in eastern and Indo-European myth and legend. The next higher common symbolic number is twelve, but Tolkien only needed the first three.

Using such symbolic numbers may give a more magical feel to whatever they are used for.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Can I just say

W O W !!!!

 

[faila]

Ithink that ranger dave has a logical arguement, and I would agree with him after reading it. Its the only one digit two syllabyle number, which can make it easier to place in things, for it sounds better.

Or for all we know tolkien could of just put a list of numbers in a hat and pulled out seven.

 

[Lantarion]

I think Jallan's post contradicts that theory! WOW!!
Welcome to the forum, jallan!

 

[goldmare]

The number seven is found often throughout the Bible, and is very common in the book of Revelation. Let me list some of the ways they are used:

Letters to seven churches
Seven golden lampstands
Seven stars
Seven spirits
Seven seals
Seven angels
Seven trumpets
Seven thunders
Seven thousand people
Seven heads
Seven angels with seven plagues
Seven golden bowls
Seven hills
Seven kings

And that's only in Revelation!

I think 7 is a very common number in anything religious or mythical, and Tolkien was a very devoit Christian. 7 is usually described as a holy number, and if you wil notice that it is 1 higher than 6, the Devil's number, you will see why.

12 and 3(usually used as "a third" of something) are also very special numbers, but I will not list all the references to them- I would have to comb the entire Bible!

 

[jallan]

I think it would be fairer to say that if six is the devil's number it is because it is one less than seven.

Most of the Biblical references probably derive from the seven day week or seven stars of the dipper, either of which provides a good number to use to indicate God's eternity.

The turning of the dipper indicates almost a day, and its differing positions at each hour of every day in the year can be used, in association with hours based on the sun, to indicate the time of year.

Time is also composed of series of seven-day weeks.

Of course time is also a series of lunary cycles or lunar months, of which there are almost twelve in a year.

Twelve is three times four, and seven is three plus four, which seems like it ought to be significant.

Thus grows the mysticism of numbers.

Rather interesting, though the Bible seems to indicate that a seven-day week goes back to the beginning, Tolkien indicates that the seven-day week was a Númenorean adaptation of an original Elvish six-day week, probably because he decided that his Elves generally number with six and twelve rather then with five and ten.

 

[PipaHappyHobbit]

According to most Christian teachings, the number 7 represents completion.

 

[faila]

I think it would be fairer to say that if six is the devil's number it is because it is one less than seven.

Six isthe number of man, not the number of satan.

 

[goldmare]

Personally, I don't know why either side has to have numbers representing them, but I'm just telling what the Bible says.