Spiders [Merged]

[Úlairi]

Spiders

I have posted this thread before, but it accidentally got wiped and I only ever got two posts on it, so here it is again. The large spiders in Mirkwood, were they cousins of Shelob? Children of Ungoliant? Children of Shelob??? Any opinions?

 

[Rohansangel]

Well, Shelob couldn't talk, and the Mirkwood spiders could, so they most likely weren't related to her.

"And that's all I have to say about that"

~The Angel of Rohan

 

[Nicholas Blake]

Rohans Angel is wrong. Shelob is the child of Ungoliant, and the Spiders of Mirkwood are the children of Shelob.

 

[Úlairi]

Nicholas Blake, despite your status of Junior Member, I believe that is exactly the answer I was looking for. Rohansangel was incorrect in saying that Shelob couldn't talk. She talked to Gollum who delivered Sam and Frodo to her, of course she could talk Rohansangel, she was the last child of Ungoliant!!!

 

[Nicholas Blake]

Yay, the first semi-intelligent Junior Member on a Message Board is me!

 

[Úlairi]

Zipedee-do-dah, zipedee-ay! You won't like me as much once you have read what I posted in your characters thread in the LoTR forum.

 

[Grond]

Just to support the cause. Here is the quote from the LotR's which supports that the spiders of Mirkwood were indeed the spawn of Shelob and that she was the spawn of Ungoliant.

From The Two Towers, Chapter Shelob's Lair, it states,

"...There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world..."

Thus your question is answered directly from the book and this thread is complete.

 

[Rohansangel]

OK, so I was wrong ... I hadn't checked the book as I should have, and you guys did, so now I feel silly.
Oh, and Nicholas ... don't feel special, because there are plenty of intelligent JMs besides you, and if you were as intelligent as you think you are, then you wouldn't be talking about it ...
Let's keep it nice.

~The Angel of Rohan

 

[Grond]

I apologize if it appeared we were after you Rohansangel. All I was trying to do was answer the question. All of us need to make sure we follow the "Golden Rule". Treat everyone as you would like to be treated.

I agree with you Rohansangel, we must "keep it nice" and I'm here to make sure that happens.

 

[Nicholas Blake]

I was just joking. Being an avid member of the Spawn Message Board for several years, I am used to the stereotype of Junior Members (AKA Newbies) being really ignorant and un-intelligent (Which was true a lot of the time).

I didn't mean to come down on anyone.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Just to support the cause. Here is the quote from the LotR's which supports that the spiders of Mirkwood were indeed the spawn of Shelob and that she was the spawn of Ungoliant.

From The Two Towers, Chapter Shelob's Lair, it states,


Thus your question is answered directly from the book and this thread is complete.

Thankyou Grond, I found that passage the other day but I still decide to see if anyone would come up with the right answer. I figured it would be you. You seem to like some of my threads.

 

[Úlairi]

It is interesting though, how the spawn of Shelob moved to Mirkwood. Were they still there in LoTR?

 

[Beorn]

I'm not really sure, nor do I know where one might look, but I would say no:

When Gandalf went to go chase of 'The Necromancer' as he was referred to in the Hobbit, many of the evil creatures that had taken abode in Mirkwood (because Sauron was there) were chased out too.

 

[Úlairi]

Yes, I agree with you on that one Beorn. When Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur there was a 'watchful peace' as Tolkien describes it in Mirkwood, obviously concluding that the spawn of Shelob had moved somewhere else or were maybe even slain by the wood-elves.

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

i think all spiders would have been descended from ungoliant in 1 way or another

 

[Úlairi]

Have you read the whole thread Beleg? There is substantial evidence that the spiders of Mirkwood were the children of Shelob, not Ungoliant simply because Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant and the last in existence. So, the spiders of Mirkwood could not be children of Ungoliant.

 

[Ancalagon]

Well, Shelob couldn't talk, and the Mirkwood spiders could, so they most likely weren't related to her.

This interests me greatly. Shelob is not recorded as having spoken any words, though Mirkwood spiders are certainly clearly recorded as having conversations in The Hobbit. Though I always assumed Shelob had spoken with Gollum, even though it is not recorded.

I wonder then if Ungoliant actually spoke when communicating with Morgorth, or possibly because she was Maia, they would communicate by the transfer of thought. Actually, could it be that neither Shelob or Ungoliant actually spoke, they simply understood?

 

[Sam_Gamgee]

Originally posted by Nicholas Blake
I was just joking. Being an avid member of the Spawn Message Board for several years, I am used to the stereotype of Junior Members (AKA Newbies) being really ignorant and un-intelligent (Which was true a lot of the time).

Exactly usually junior memebers tend to be a little off im glad i finially got to normal memeber and now some people will take me more seriously lol but yeah it says in the book about shelob's children migrating to the northern parts of mordor and mirkwood and to a buncha different places so they are related to shelob

 

[Úlairi]

I have always presumed that Shelob could talk as she was a child of Ungoliant, who could speak. All of the children of Ungoliant could speak and the spiders of Mirkwood I believe were the children of Shelob who could also speak!

 

[Grond]

I am on vacation and don't have my books with me (I know... shame on me!) but I am sure that in the last few chapters of TT it gives a very detailed description of Shelob and identifies her as the last of the brood of Ungoliant and also refers to the Spiders of Mirkwood as her offspring.