Tell me I'm not seeing this...

[Ariana Undomiel]

I quite agree with you, Mrs. Maggott. One of the main faults for the loss of the true gentleman is the idea that women go to extremes to prove that they must be treated as equals and they take offense over such things as honoring woman by holding the door, drawing up a chair, treating a woman as the more tender of the two sexes. I would love it if there were guys out there who would go back to the days of chivalry and gentlemanly courtesy. Although, in defense of my guy friends, they are making an attempt.

~Ariana

 

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
This wasn't a "trailer"; it was a well documented and accepted site which DISCUSSED the scenario (among many other changes in TTT), gave pros and cons for each and a probability scale which for this scenario was five out of five. I was VERY careful not to just accept scuttlebut. Indeed, I was so concerned about this particular scenario, I took every possible care that I would not fall prey to mere speculation.

I know the site you are talking about, but it's not as if that site gets it's info from PJ. If you'll notice, they list sources, and for that particular scene their only source is the trailer. Now, having seen the trailer, I can garauntee that the word "fight" is being thrown around much too loosely. The trailer shows exactly one thing: Eowyn parring Aragorns sword. Do thier swords meet? Yes. Would I call that fighting, and go so far as to assume one person attacked the other? No, that is foolish and is in my opinion akin to what folks were saying about Arwen fighting the Nazgul. You can't know the circumstances of the scene. And I hope you aren't serious about trusting everything you read on the net, esspecially when it comes to PJ's movie.

 

[PRH]

This might shed some new light on this whole issue:

http://img-nex.theonering.net/movies/WB-Edoras.mov

It's a video showing more of the "big duel" between Aragorn and Eowyn. Turns out it's all a MAJOR flirting scene.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Well, of course, Tolkien was inclined in the beginning to favor Eowyn for Aragorn rather than Arwen, but changed his mind at the end. It is understandable that the young, impressionable maiden, stunted and damaged by the terrible circumstances surrounding her uncle's reign would be drawn to a strange, mysterious and extremely powerful man like Aragorn. The problem here is, that under no circumstances would he permit even the slightest hint that might encourage her attention since he is already betrothed and in love with Arwen. Oh, well, yes, of course I mean TOLKIEN'S Aragorn.

Jackson having made Aragorn into a vacillating chap inclined to meekly take orders from a rather overbearing elf woman who, we are all constantly reminded, is so much older and better than he, might not be nearly so delicate in his sensibilities regarding a young woman who is about 60 years his junior and given to erotic hero worship. No, I can easily see that Mr. Jackson might get quite a "ride" out of the entire situation! Now whether Eowyn does as well is anybody's guess! Perhaps the good Director will leave his audience to make up their own minds about the matter. But, heck, Eowyn doesn't have much of a chance given what Jackson is already doing to her other lover! Poor girl.

 

[Thorin]

OH PLEEEEEEZE!!!! What the heck is PJ doing?? What the heck is Viggo talking about??? "She is the one that Aragon should be with. There is a great affection between them." AAAAAAHHH!!!!!

The whole sword fighting scene is at least put into perspective with this clip, so Maggot can at least have her fears put to rest with the whole chivalry thing. This is bad because they are really blowing up this whole love triangle thing. As a matter of fact, this "triangle" was mentioned (and loved ) by one of the female reviewers of TTT of being a part of the movie.

Trust PJ to distort everything Tolkien.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Alas, I could hear the sound, but I could not receive the pictures. However, I realize that their "duel" was not real, but it still would have been extremely unchivalrous to have drawn not only on a member of your host's family, but a woman as well.

Yet, in a way, what is conveyed - at least by what is said and what I have read from those who have seen it (a "little flirtation") is even - God help us - more disturbing since it contains a sexual element that Tolkien's Aragorn would have avoided with even more distaste than a failure of chivalry.

But apparently, it is another nudge, nudge, wink, wink to the audience, a little titillation at the expense of the myth. Well, I for one expected as much. Isn't it sad how the current culture has to demean and debase anything noble and pure. Perhaps God was kind to Professor Tolkien in that he has not lived to see the day when Western culture has become so, well, orcish.

 

[PRH]

I think you need to upgrade your version of Quicktime so you can see what you're talking about before further comment.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

 

[Talimon]

MM, let me assure you that she is not the one who draws the sword, and there is no anger on either side. Indeed, this makes everything make so much more sense. As I said before, don't trust information from commercials.

 

[Phee]

Originally posted by Thorin
OH PLEEEEEEZE!!!! What the heck is PJ doing?? What the heck is Viggo talking about??? "She is the one that Aragon should be with. There is a great affection between them." AAAAAAHHH!!!!!

Actually, what Viggo says is: "She's very different from Arwen. You could say she might even be more "right" as a person for him to be with. There's a great affection between them."

I don't think he's trying to say Aragorn should dump Arwen for Eowyn, or anything of the sort. If you think about it logically, yeah, Aragorn and Eowyn are more alike than Aragorn and Arwen. Not to mention that he wouldn't have to worry about someone giving up their immortality for him if he'd been with Eowyn instead. It would have been easier if Aragorn met Eowyn first and fell in love with her instead.

And as for the "affection", well I feel "affection" for my little brother but that doesn't mean I wanna jump in bed with him. There are many different types of "affection", and I think it's a fair statement that Aragorn could have had some type of affection for Eowyn...just not in a romantic sense.

And as I suspected the big Aragorn/Eowyn "fight scene" wasn't actually a fight scene at all. He just whipped out his knife to prevent her from lopping him in half because she was playing with a sword and didn't realise he was there.

 

[Aerin]

Wow, I haven't seen this thread o' mine in a while....

As for the chivalry/flirting thing... I am going to be thoroughly disappointed and disgusted if it's a fight like the "fencing lesson" in the Mask of Zorro. As has been pointed out numerous times, the intention of that fight was not for Elena to retrieve her father's papers from Zorro; rather, it was intended to show off as much skin on Catherine Zeta-Jones as possible. I mean, what real swordsman (or woman) would allow their opponent to cut their clothes off?

I agree with Mrs. Maggott's last post. Why Aragorn would walk up and interrupt Eowyn's sword practice was not even rude, it was extremely flirtacious. And the atmosphere they created was anything but Aragorn remaining noble and pure in regard to Eowyn....

He just whipped out his knife to prevent her from lopping him in half because she was playing with a sword and didn't realise he was there.

As for that, a swordswoman as skilled as Eowyn supposedly is in PJ's creation (note the distinction ), she would have seen him, at the very latest, out of the corner of her eye and stopped her swing.

As a side note, doesn't Aragorn seem a bit like a push-over? I saw part of the extended edition today at a friend's house, and I was shocked at the scene where Aragorn and Galadriel are talking about Arwen. "I would not have her give up her immortality... I would have her to go Valinor"...
Aragorn, in the movie, was perfectly fine with Arwen telling him she wants to become mortal for his sake; and was backtracking with Galadriel, saying he didn't want her to give up the Undying Lands for him... and what next? Falling for Eowyn while she's there, but the minute Arwen comes (doing Lord-knows-what), he's all for her again? Isn't that a bit fickle?

 

[Fimbrethil]

Arwen from greater lineage than Aragorn? Unless I have completely missed Aragorn's entire story, he's descended from Isildur, you know, the guy who defeated Sauron?
Comparing the lineage of Elves to the lineage of Aragorn is a little difficult, unless you are comparing the deeds of their forebears.

Just to interrupt the discussion ( I doubt the fellow will read this but I need to say it), Arwen and Aragorn are from, well, the same lineage in a slightly weird sense.

Isildur may have defeated sauron, but he is in turn descended from Elros, the first king of the Numenoreons. Elros happened to be (gasp) Elrond's twin brother. Elrond being Arwen's father. Undiluted blood perhaps? Not to mention Luthein, Melian, Earendil, Galadriel and...is it Feanor that is Arwens great great uncle or something (I know Galadriel came over the sea with the Noldor....I think...hmm...can't remember...)

 

[Talimon]

Aragorn, in the movie, was perfectly fine with Arwen telling him she wants to become mortal for his sake; and was backtracking with Galadriel, saying he didn't want her to give up the Undying Lands for him...

He wasn't fine at all with Arwen giving up her immortality. When she gives him the Evenstar, he immediately objects, saying, "You can't give this to me." He never takes her decision lightly, if indeed she has made her decision yet at all.

I agree with Mrs. Maggott's last post. Why Aragorn would walk up and interrupt Eowyn's sword practice was not even rude, it was extremely flirtacious. And the atmosphere they created was anything but Aragorn remaining noble and pure in regard to Eowyn....

It wasn't quite "sword practice", from the clip I saw. I'd describe it as Eowyn "playing-warrior", somewhat fantasizing about being in the midst of battle. She is caught up in her "game", so to speak, and when she turns around to blow a strike Aragorn meets her stroke with his sword. It's not so much him "being-there-and-defending-himself". He is playing along. "Extermely flirtatious"? We'll see.

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

Ok, I too have seen the clip with Eowyn and her sword practice. It did appear to me that Aragorn, unbeknownst to Eowyn, and come up to watch her and suddenly she moved backward and swung within range of his body so he simply reacted by pulling out his dagger. I don't think he was flirting at all. I personally really like that scene.

- Ariana

 

[PRH]

Yes, that sounds about right -- Eowyn 'playing warrior' and Aragorn 'playing along.' It was at least somewhat flirtatious to be sure. At least I think so. I can't entirely intrepret that look Aragorn gives while their blades are still touching where he c0cks his head to the side. Is it a 'you're a curious woman' or is it 'you're a lovely woman' or is it 'why the anger? women shouldn't fight!' Or is it a combo of these, or something else? I'm just not sure what that look is meant to say.

There is certainly a little bit more to this scene because we cut from Eowyn holding her blade up to Aragorn's face to Eowyn bent over the trunk she got the sword out of again.

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

SPOILERSSSSSSSSESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, the following is a full description of the scene concerning the 'duel' between Aragorn and Eowyn in the Two Towers.

It starts with Eowyn, apparently in the strong hold of Helm's Deep, opening a wooden chest and removing a beautiful sword that is bound by a brown leather scabbard. She then withdraws it with a gleam in her eye and begins to do some practice moves. As she goes along she gets more and more into and then suddenly backing up and swinging round she runs into Aragorn who whips out his knife to keep her from hacking into him. She glares at him and he cocks his head curiously at her saying, "You have some skill with a blade." To prove his statement more than true she skillfully removes her blade from the locked position that he had forced her into. Calmly he gazes at her for a moment and then returns his Lothlorien blade to its sheath. Eowyn breaks out of her 'warrior' mood and returns to the chest while saying, 'The women of my land learned long ago that those who do not wield a sword can still die on one.' Having returned the blade to its shieth she returns it to its chest while saying, 'I do not fear pain or death.'

Aragorn looks at her slightly curious, "What do you fear, my lady?" He asks.

She looks at him with a hard cold face and replys, "A cage. To be left behind bars until uselessness and old age accept them."

Aragorn looks at her with almost a pitying look,"You are the daughter of kings. I do not believe that will be your fate."

The scene ends with Eowyn's gaze softening and it she almost reveals the love that is growing towards him.

I personally did not find this scene in the least flirtatious, but rather a scene where Aragorn is seeing the Lady Eowyn in a new light, and she is falling further in love with him.

- Ariana

 

[Phee]

PRH, if you click this link (originally posted by Ariana in another thread): http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/1/1039139941
it's a compilation of several scenes from TTT. The last couple minutes of it is more of the Eowyn/Aragorn scene.

 

[PRH]

Thanks Phee. That certainly answers that. I kind of wish I hadn't watched all those clips, it was almost too much - but they were definitely cool!

 

[Phee]

I know what you mean. I keep telling myself that I shouldn't watch stuff like that, and I shouldn't read the reviews with major spoilers...but I can't help myself.

 

[Asha'man]

This is a first for me, actually joining a Tolkien-related discussion.

I noticed when I saw this scene on TV the other night, that Eowyn's eyes kinda popped out when she spun around and Aragorn was there to catch her blade. She was obviously surprised at meeting resistance, not to mention the resistance being.....*him*.

Ash