The 'Black Gate' of 🌋Mordor

[Sauron]

Let's look at this passage:

' "I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand." '

The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the 'Black Gate' -Carchost and Narchost- built only after Sauron was overthrown in the early years of the Third Age, according to the passage below?

'As he gazed on it (the stronghold of Cirith Ungol) suddenly Sam understood, almost with a shock that this stronghold had been built not to keep enemies out of Mordor, but to keep them in. It was indeed one of the works of Gondor long ago, and eastern outpost of the defenses of Ithilien, made when, after the Last Alliance, Men of Westernesse kept watch on the evil land of Sauron where his creatures still lurked. But as with Narchost and Carchost, the Towers of the Teeth, so here too the vigilance had failed, and treachery had yielded up the Tower to the Lord of the Ringwraiths, and now for long years it had been held by evil things.'

The Return of the King: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

If I understand the nature of evil correctly, Sauron could not create life or build things unless there was an existing structure that he could twist to his own ends. Clearly the Tower of Barad-dur is an exception, but I was under the impression that the Black Gate was built by the Numenoreans after the Last Alliance to keep watch on the land of Mordor, and was only abandoned with the death of King Ondoher of Gondor. It had much the same technology as the Tower of Orthanc, and the walls that surrounded Minas Tirith.

 

[Noldor_returned]

I think you're right, but then again, Tolkien isn't perfect. But something this big he couldnt've missed. So I'm thinking maybe the foundations had been laid by the servants of Sauron, and he was planning to put them to an evil use, or just merely as fortification to protect himself. Then, when the Last Alliance was victorious, they continued to build the gates, as you said to keep evil in.
This would also explain the following, "...the Black Gate was hurled in ruin..." The Field of Cormallen, Return of the King. When the ring was destroyed, all evil done by Sauron and his servants was unmade. Why would the Gates by thrown down, except if Sauron had had some part in their creation? Therefore, my conclusion is that Sauron started work on the Gates in order to fortify his lands, but they were incomplete after the first overthrow of him. Then, in order to hold back the evil from Mordor, the Numenoreans/Gondorians continued work on them.
However, there is one final point I would like to make. All of Sauron's creations were made in mimicry of the work of Eru Illuvatar, and is it possible that is why Sam saw a resemblance? Orcs are a copy of elves, and trolls ents. Maybe Sauron wished to copy the architecture of Gondor, and so built his gates in a similar fashion to them. And is it possible that the idea came from the Numenoreans? Sauron was their "prisoner" for a while, and would've had an insight into how their designs and works were made. So maybe, he copied gates from Numenor. Because, as pointed out, they were similar to Osgiliath, but Osgiliath was built by Numenoreans.
Does this help?

 

[Noldor_returned]

I thought of another point- Minas Morgul (Minas Ithil) was not destroyed when the Ring was. If the Gates had been built by Sauron, they would not have been destroyed unless Sauron had some part in their construction. Sure he defiled Minas Ithil, but it was not destroyed as he did not create it.

 

[Hammersmith]

Where does it say that Sauron could not build things on his own? Barad Dur, as you say is a clear exception. Another is Dol Guldur which Sauron apparently built, if I remember the Silmarillion at all. And his master was clearly capable of raising up Angband and Nargathrond too. I can't see anything to suggest Sauron was incapable of building.

 

[Arvedui]

Sauron occupied Mordor long before the Númenóreans first sailed their ships to Middle-earth.
And it is nowhere stated that he could not build, quite contrary, it is stated that most of the buildings in Mordor were founded with the help of the power of the Ring, and that was why they weren't utterly destroyed when Sauron was defeated by Elendil and Gil-galad.

 

[Gothmog]

Just a couple of points on this matter. The towers of the teeth are not the 'Black-gate' but the towers on either side of it. Sauron fortified Mordor early in the Second-Age and I doubt that he would fail to erect some fortifications across the narrow mouth of the valley of Udun. So there was probably a 'Morannon' there to start with. When Sauron was defeated by the last alliance this black gate was either opened or thrown down, the Barad-dur was also destroyed but its foundations were not destroyed as they were strengthened by the power of the Ring (although it seems that these were built before the ring was made). After this the towers of Carchost, Narchost and Cirith Ungol were then built by Gondor to keep the rest of Sauron's creatures in Mordor. The Morannon would then have been kept (if it had not been destroyed in the war) or rebuilt (if it had been destroyed).

 

[Aglarband]

The Black Gate and the tower of Cirith Ungol, which is what your second passage is referring too, are in completely different spots. You are confusing the two, they are not even close to eachother. Let me repeat, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Yet the original black gate was most likely destroyed and then a new one built in its place to the Gondorians style and design.

Also Sauron (and Morgoth) could not create new LIVING things, he could move stone and make stuff though... I mean, duh.

 

[Sauron]

The Black Gate and the tower of Cirith Ungol, which is what your second passage is referring too, are in completely different spots. You are confusing the two, they are not even close to eachother. Let me repeat, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Yet the original black gate was most likely destroyed and then a new one built in its place to the Gondorians style and design.

Also Sauron (and Morgoth) could not create new LIVING things, he could move stone and make stuff though... I mean, duh.

You misunderstood me, and you seem to be the only one here who has. I was not talking about the Tower of Cirith Ungol -I am fully aware, thank you, that the two are not one and the same.

I cited the passage below to show my confusion regarding the Black Gates, about whether they were built by Sauron, or by the Men of Westernesse. The first cited passage suggests that the Black Gates were there to begin with, and yet the second suggests that they were built only after Sauron was first overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil.

Did that clear it up for you?

 

[Eriol]

The passage speaks only of the towers, not of the gate. This seems to me to be the easiest way out of the problem . However, it might be said that this is because Sam was looking at Cirith Ungol (i.e. he was thinking about towers in particular), and that it would be weird to build towers without a wall and a gate.

There is a more interesting point to be made. The valley of Udûn has two entrances, one at the Morannon and one at Carach Angren. Perhaps Sauron built the gate at Carach Angren and the people of Gondor built the one at the Morannon. From a military standpoint, it makes sense (for Sauron) to make his gate at Carach Angren; it would be next to impossible for any armed force to take the gate while surrounded by the mountains. "The Black Gate of Mordor" referred to by Elrond might be at Carach Angren instead of at the Morannon.

Then again, "Morannon" means "Black Gate", so this is a weak hypothesis to begin with . I think I'll keep the one about the towers, in which Sauron built the gate, the Númenóreans built the towers. It's the most likely explanation in my opinion.

 

[Aglarband]

You misunderstood me, and you seem to be the only one here who has. I was not talking about the Tower of Cirith Ungol -I am fully aware, thank you, that the two are not one and the same.

I cited the passage below to show my confusion regarding the Black Gates, about whether they were built by Sauron, or by the Men of Westernesse. The first cited passage suggests that the Black Gates were there to begin with, and yet the second suggests that they were built only after Sauron was first overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil.

Did that clear it up for you?

I still say that the Original Gate must have been torn down and a new one built by the Numenorians, then when Sauron returned to the black land he decided that he would simply change instead of building a new one.