The fate of Tuor and Idril

[Ricardo]

This is one of my favourite topics (and couple). I have had many discussions about the real fate of Tuor and Idril and many people think that Tuor was not turned into an elf and they never reached Aman.

I disagree, and I have many arguments to support that. Sorry it's a bit long.

First, was Tuor worth of such a gift? There were men as or more worthy than him (e.g. Beren or Hurin).

Well, for starters, Tuor was definitely worthy, the fact that were others doesn't invalidate his case. But Tuor was different than other men. He never knew his parents, he was raised by elves and his only contact with humans was as a slave.

He was even practically treated as one in Gondolin, Turgon was ok with him marrying Idril and he ever lead one of the houses of Gondolin.

Second, is it possible?

Well, not to the Valar, but Iluvatar certainly could do it. He had already done (but the reverse) when he turned Luthien into a mortal, and he revived Beren even though men are not supposed to come back.

There is another argument, not strong enough but worth considering. Idril never did anything wrong, sure she was part of the rebel Noldor but she was just following her parents. She saw her mother die, then her father and the city she loved was destroyed. Nobody forced her to marry Tuor, but it was her destiny, she had to be Earendil's mother and that way Earendil could represent both races. Why to punish her for just doing the right thing?

Now for the stronger arguments.

This is a story of the first age. The source for first age stories is the red book of the westmarch. A part called translations from elvish by BB. This are the stories of the first age, written by Bilbo from sources in Rivendel. But where did those sources come from? Surely from Numenor, the elves used to visit the island and it's likely they brought the story to Numenor, probably during Elros's reign (Elros was Tuor and Idril's grandson).
Probably Elendil or Isildur brought it to Middle Earth of maybe it was brought earlier, but Elrond surely would have been especially interested as he too was Tuor and Idril's grandson. I heard arguments that the story could have been invented, or twisted over the year but why would somebody invent something like that? and the story is vague enough to make twisting it very difficult.

Another argument, why would Tuor and Idril sail to the west when they knew neither would be allowed to stay? Why leave Earendil and Elwing behind? The Simlarillion says that Tuor was getting old, but sailing to the west wouldn't help him there (normally) but more important, Tuor had the longing for the sea, put in him by Ulmo.

Now, why would Ulmo do that? it wasn't necessary for Tuor's mission of warning Turgon, not even to what was probably Ulmo's real purpose, father Earendil and getting him to safety.

The thing is, longing for the sea is the way the Valar summon the elves to go to Aman. Remember Galadriel telling Legolas to be careful with the sea and that at some point Legolas could not resist it any longer.

Earendil had the same longing, but in his case it was probably to push him to sail to the west, but in the case of Tuor it had to a way of calling him. I believe Tuor would not have taken Idril in that trip without hope.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

The Valar DEFINITELY had the capacity to make Tuor an Elf.

Tolkien in many places discuses the “Delegated, Sub-Creative Authority/Power of the Ainur” (including Maiar), but the Valar, especially.

The Statement of the crucial, and most important Letter of Letters: #153 to states:

The Letters of JRR Tolkien; #153 to Peter Hastings, Sept, 1954; p. 195 of pp. 183 – 195:

So in this myth, it is ‘feigned’ (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special ‘sub-creative’ powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they ‘fell’, as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things ‘for himself, to be their Lord’, these would then ‘be’, even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other ‘rational’ creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least ‘be’ real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even ‘mocking’ the Children of God. They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad.

This is NOT the only mention of this. In Karl Hostetter’s The Nature of Middle-earth, during the “discussions” Tolkien had with himself over Elvish Reincarnation, he makes it clear that the ONLY THING the Valar CANNOT DO, is alter the Universe AS A WHOLE, Itself. Changing one thing about one aspect of one small portion of it is clearly within their Authority/Power¹.

He does contradict this in a few places, that are, chronologically, prior to the Letter #153 to Peter Hastings, indicating an evolution of thought.

So, to get to the NoM-e…

In Part 2, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation, Tolkien observes:

The Nature of Midle-earth; Part II, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation; p. 247:

— Manwë said: … What is to be done?
— Eru answered: “Let the houseless be re-housed!”
— Manwë asked: “How shall this be done?”
— Eru answered: “Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fëa be re-born as a child.”
— Manwë said: “Is it Thy will that we should attempt these things? For we fear to meddle with Thy Children.”
— Eru answered: “Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in these things. As for My First-born, have ye not removed great numbers of them to Aman from the Middle-earth in which I set them?”
— Manwë answered: “This we have done, for fear of Melcor,[1] and with good intent, though not without misgiving. But to use our power upon the flesh that Thou hast designed, to house the spirits of Thy Children, this seems a matter beyond our authority, even were it not beyond our skill.”
— Eru said: “I give you authority. The skill ye have already, if ye will take heed. Look and ye will find that each spirit of My Children retaineth in itself the full imprint and memory of its former house; and in its nakedness it is open to you, so that ye may clearly perceive all that is in it. After this imprint ye may make for it again such a house in all particulars as it had ere evil befell it. Thus ye may send it back to the lands of the Living.”

The Nature of Midle-earth; Part II, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation; p. 249:

It is clear that the Valar had power and skill, among them, to form from the substance of Arda any thing, however intricate in design, of which they knew and fully perceived the pattern. But as was seen in the case of Aulë and the Dwarves they had no power to give free mind and will to anything that they made. With regard to the Dead, however, the living mind of the fëa already existed, and the Valar had only to make for it a house in all things the same as the one that it had lost. This they could now do with the authority of Eru.

Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”, The Question of Making Lúthien a Human was no less daunting and perplexing than would be making Tuor an Elf. BOTH required the Petition to Eru. Eru assented to Lúthien becoming Human, why would he deny Tuor the similar choice of wanting to remain with Idril “forever.”

The Nature of Midle-earth; Part II, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation; p. 262:

The Valar have power in Aman to re-build bodies for the Elves.

Remember, Tolkien based Marriage upon the Catholic Ideals, where this was FOR-EVER!
And within Catholicism, the Married are to REMAIN TOGETHER… FOR-EVER!

Thus, Eru would seek to maintain that status. Beren did not wish to become an Elf, but Lúthien assented to being Human. SNAP! DONE!

That he would deny Tuor the same is…. Inconceivable. Tolkien would have rebelled at that refusal, and thus wouldn’t have ever considered it.

It is possible, however, that the issue never arose as Tuor and Idril were stranded on one of the Enchanted Isles surrounding Aman, and thus remained asleep on its shores until the “Final Judgement” and Arda Marred was restored to Arda Unmarred.

MB



1. About “Power:”

Power to Tolkien means “Authority,” and NOT “Strength,” for which Tolkien uses the term “Might.” So a person with “Power” is one with the Authority to “do” a thing. This does not mean that the “Power” grants the being possessing it additional “Strength,” but merely the “Rightful Authority” to “do a thing” that CAN HAVE REAL-World effects vastly beyond those of another person of similar Stature and Might.

A good example of this is in our world, with the US President, or that of any other leader of a country possessing Nuclear Weapons.

The President, Prime Minister, Dictator, etc. will have the “Sole Power” to Use those weapons. That doesn’t grant them the “strength” to defeat another in personal combat. But it DOES GIVE THEM the Means to Destroy the World (in MOST cases)! Simply by “Pressing the Button,” so to speak, (despite there being no “ACTUAL Button” for the person giving the order for their use to “Press.” So it giving them no “Strength/Might” in personal combat, yet giving them the MEANS to destroy the world, gives them a “Power” vastly in excess.

 

[Ricardo]

The Valar DEFINITELY had the capacity to make Tuor an Elf.

Tolkien in many places discuses the “Delegated, Sub-Creative Authority/Power of the Ainur” (including Maiar), but the Valar, especially.

The Statement of the crucial, and most important Letter of Letters: #153 to states:



This is NOT the only mention of this. In Karl Hostetter’s The Nature of Middle-earth, during the “discussions” Tolkien had with himself over Elvish Reincarnation, he makes it clear that the ONLY THING the Valar CANNOT DO, is alter the Universe AS A WHOLE, Itself. Changing one thing about one aspect of one small portion of it is clearly within their Authority/Power¹.

He does contradict this in a few places, that are, chronologically, prior to the Letter #153 to Peter Hastings, indicating an evolution of thought.

So, to get to the NoM-e…

In Part 2, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation, Tolkien observes:





Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”, The Question of Making Lúthien a Human was no less daunting and perplexing than would be making Tuor an Elf. BOTH required the Petition to Eru. Eru assented to Lúthien becoming Human, why would he deny Tuor the similar choice of wanting to remain with Idril “forever.”



Remember, Tolkien based Marriage upon the Catholic Ideals, where this was FOR-EVER!
And within Catholicism, the Married are to REMAIN TOGETHER… FOR-EVER!

Thus, Eru would seek to maintain that status. Beren did not wish to become an Elf, but Lúthien assented to being Human. SNAP! DONE!

That he would deny Tuor the same is…. Inconceivable. Tolkien would have rebelled at that refusal, and thus wouldn’t have ever considered it.

It is possible, however, that the issue never arose as Tuor and Idril were stranded on one of the Enchanted Isles surrounding Aman, and thus remained asleep on its shores until the “Final Judgement” and Arda Marred was restored to Arda Unmarred.

MB



1. About “Power:”

Power to Tolkien means “Authority,” and NOT “Strength,” for which Tolkien uses the term “Might.” So a person with “Power” is one with the Authority to “do” a thing. This does not mean that the “Power” grants the being possessing it additional “Strength,” but merely the “Rightful Authority” to “do a thing” that CAN HAVE REAL-World effects vastly beyond those of another person of similar Stature and Might.

A good example of this is in our world, with the US President, or that of any other leader of a country possessing Nuclear Weapons.

The President, Prime Minister, Dictator, etc. will have the “Sole Power” to Use those weapons. That doesn’t grant them the “strength” to defeat another in personal combat. But it DOES GIVE THEM the Means to Destroy the World (in MOST cases)! Simply by “Pressing the Button,” so to speak, (despite there being no “ACTUAL Button” for the person giving the order for their use to “Press.” So it giving them no “Strength/Might” in personal combat, yet giving them the MEANS to destroy the world, gives them a “Power” vastly in excess.

Thank you for that, very insightful and reveals aspect I wasn't aware of.

I did know the Valar had the power to re-embody dead elves, but I thought that changing the nature of an elf or a man wasn't within their powers.

In the case of Luthien, I thought that Manwe was merely a messenger and the actual transformation was done by Iluvatar, but you can also said that any powers the Valar wielded ultimately came from Iluvatar.


I totally agree with the concept of marriage in Tolkien's view. I always thought it would have been very unfair for Idril to be left alone, she didn't choose her destiny (of course she did choose to marry Tuor but the fact they fell in love with each other was part of that destiny). They both were destined to have Earendil that ultimately would mean the defeat of Morgoth.

Idril herself never did anything wrong, surely, she was part of the elves groups that disobeyed the Valar, but she was just following her parents. She was young (in elves terms) and then, she didn't just give birth to Earendil. She saved his life when Maeglin tried to kill him and were her visions who saved them all, she she asked for the tunnel to be built.

I know also there is a story they were both put to sleep in one of the enchanted islands, and that would fit well with the time passed after, 40 years the war of wrath lasted, I don't think they needed to wait until the end. Once Morgoth was defeated and the Valar pardoned the rebel elves, there was no reason to keep them there.

If they have remained in the island, then the story would have never been known, why would they even be a story about them being accepted in Aman and Tuor becoming an elf.

Tuor was certainly Ulmo's favourite, and my guess is that Ulmo's influence grew even more after the war of the wrath, after all what happened was his doing mostly (a sort of I told you so to the other Valar). So because of all of this, and what I wrote before I am convinced that Tuor became and elf and he and Idril are together until the end.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

"In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of ‘immortality’ and become ‘mortal’ – but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ – though not mingling with other people: a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way."
Letter 153

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves."
Letter 153

 

[Eljorahir]

‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way."

My thoughts on Tolkien's "it is supposed (not stated)" from the letter:

At the end of Tuor's chapter...

"...Tuor felt old age creep upon him...with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."

Tolkien does like to give us uncertainty and "no tale tells" at the end of the stories. It works very well to give the stories that "legendary" feel to them in the end.

My two cents:

Just because "it was sung" by somebody in "after days" doesn't mean it's true.

Even if the "after days" songs are true, if Tuor is "numbered among" the elder race, I think that's not necessarily the same as being "transformed into" one the elder race.

So, I don't know if Tuor was transformed, but I'm happy living with the uncertainty that goes along with the legendary tale.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

"In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of ‘immortality’ and become ‘mortal’ – but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ – though not mingling with other people: a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way."
Letter 153

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves."
Letter 153

And this letter pre-dates the material I quoted from NoM-e.

I did point that out, including another quote from that very letter that indicated he had conflicting thoughts on this, and while I didn’t cite this passage, I did point-out the letter includes a direct contradiction of the passage I did cite.

That is a pretty common thing for writers who worked on very complex narratives, akin to actual Myths (which likewise are filled to overflowing with categorical contradictions! The Bible alone contains some 28,000 Categorical Contradictions of the nature “Up is down, Black is White, etc.” Including that of things that tend to send the laity of Christianity into a frenzy when pointed out… Such as Following Jesus sends you to hell. The Clergy, especially Jesuits, find these sorts of things to be more exciting and interesting as puzzles to be solved than as a threat to the central Mythos and message), to have contradictions arise in fundamental aspects of their works.

Larry Marder, the creator of Tales of/from the Beanworld (The ‘Of/From’ is his very first such contradiction, which he intended to eventually address, but problems at Dark Horse, the original publisher, caused him to put it aside) has talked about that very problem in writing, even when it is something as frivolous and comic as To/ftBW.

You will find it in Lovecraft, Howard, Dunsany, Morris, Moorcock (many of his are intentional), and ESPECIALLY in the Comic-Book Universes (even more-so prior to the 1960s/70s when the publishers began the process of Unifying their World-Building, such that collections of Heroes all inhabit the same Universe. Did you know it was not until the recent Superman v Batman film that the relationship of Gotham and Metropolis was finally “fixed,” as both originally represented NYC, where “Gotham” is now a sort of “Bronx or Brooklyn” to the “Manhattan” of Metropolis).

MB

Edit: “Transformed.”

I think this is a case like “Power” where people are using a word that doesn’t really apply the way Tolkien considered it. “Transformed” is something I have less Theological study of than “Power,” where Tolkien is just mirroring the Catholic Church’s use of the term. But it is a term the church uses for a very specific number of things that intuition tells me would likely not apply in this case. “Change” and “Transformation” are some very different things in that context.

Edit II:

I think the issue with “Transformed” has to do with its relation to “Changed.”

Lúthien had her “nature” Changed, to remain with Beren. I don’t see much saying “Transformed” to a Human (if anything), and it strikes me as a case of Making v Creating.

Change of Nature is a case of “Making someone into Y or Z from X.” Where “Transforming” is a case of Fundamentally Altering the Nasser and Erma of the being in Question: or Creating a new thing.

The need to appeal to Eru might suggest the latter is more appropriate, but that might just be a case like Elvish Reincarnation where the first instance of it left the Valar ‘Confused’ about what to do, doubting themselves as they often did. So the Valar ask Eru “Can we do this?” And Eru says “I have been waiting for you to ask this. Yes! You can DO that!” And the Valar say “But do WE have the AUTHORITY to ‘Do’ it? And Eru says “I give/gave you the authority.”

 

[Tar-Elenion]

My thoughts on Tolkien's "it is supposed (not stated)" from the letter:

At the end of Tuor's chapter...

"...Tuor felt old age creep upon him...with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."

Tolkien does like to give us uncertainty and "no tale tells" at the end of the stories. It works very well to give the stories that "legendary" feel to them in the end.

My two cents:

Just because "it was sung" by somebody in "after days" doesn't mean it's true.

Even if the "after days" songs are true, if Tuor is "numbered among" the elder race, I think that's not necessarily the same as being "transformed into" one the elder race.

So, I don't know if Tuor was transformed, but I'm happy living with the uncertainty that goes along with the legendary tale.

In the story "it is supposed’ (not stated)". Outside the story Tolkien explains what he means/intends: "the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

Mathew Bailey provided:

The Letters of JRR Tolkien; #153 to Peter Hastings, Sept, 1954; p. 195 of pp. 183 – 195
So in this myth, it is ‘feigned’ (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special ‘sub-creative’ powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they ‘fell’, as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things ‘for himself, to be their Lord’, these would then ‘be’, even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other ‘rational’ creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least ‘be’ real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even ‘mocking’ the Children of God. They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad.

The letter continues:
"But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’, I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them."

The Nature of Midle-earth; Part II, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation; p. 249:

It is clear that the Valar had power and skill, among them, to form from the substance of Arda any thing, however intricate in design, of which they knew and fully perceived the pattern. But as was seen in the case of Aulë and the Dwarves they had no power to give free mind and will to anything that they made.

Do the Valar know and fully perceive the pattern of Elves and Men, such that a Vala on his own can alter their fundamental nature?

Noting that in Comment 4 Tolkien wrote: "“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique."

While in Text 3 Tolkien writes:
"From this “inspection”, having among them as a whole a complete power over the physical substances of Middle-earth..."
&
"For the Elves believed and asserted that they had learned this from the Valar, that Eru alone could create “spirits” with independent, though secondary, being; and that each of these spirits was individual and unique."
The spirit can only be created by Eru alone, and it is not a 'physical' substance.

And this letter pre-dates the material I quoted from NoM-e.

And?
.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

In the story "it is supposed’ (not stated)". Outside the story Tolkien explains what he means/intends: "the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

Mathew Bailey provided:


The letter continues:
"But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’, I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them."

Both Idril and Tuor already have Souls. So not relevant to simply “rehousing” a Fëa. Like he states her with Orcs. If you can turn an Elf or Human to an Orc you can do the opposite.

And… Later in the letter in contradicts that they couldn’t make Souls, when it discusses Melkor’s possible “Creation” of Orcs/Trolls/etc.

Do the Valar know and fully perceive the pattern of Elves and Men, such that a Vala on his own can alter their fundamental nature?

Noting that in Comment 4 Tolkien wrote: "“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique."

While in Text 3 Tolkien writes:
"From this “inspection”, having among them as a whole a complete power over the physical substances of Middle-earth..."
&
"For the Elves believed and asserted that they had learned this from the Valar, that Eru alone could create “spirits” with independent, though secondary, being; and that each of these spirits was individual and unique."
The spirit can only be created by Eru alone, and it is not a 'physical' substance.


And?
.

Pre-dating means he tends to have changed his mind, although sometimes that can be a full 360º, right back to where he began.

As to the other… NO “Spirit” is being “Created.” That already exists. Remember… Elf/Human —> Orc…

MB

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Both Idril and Tuor already have Souls. So not relevant to simply “rehousing” a Fëa. Like he states her with Orcs. If you can turn an Elf or Human to an Orc you can do the opposite.

It is not rehousing. It is altering the fundamental nature, the fea, of the Incarnate.
"it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case"

And… Later in the letter in contradicts that they couldn’t make Souls, when it discusses Melkor’s possible “Creation” of Orcs/Trolls/etc.

No, he does not:
"But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’, I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them."

Pre-dating means he tends to have changed his mind, although sometimes that can be a full 360º, right back to where he began.

And? You need to show that he changed his mind.
That letter does not indicate he changed his mind.

As to the other… NO “Spirit” is being “Created.” That already exists. Remember… Elf/Human —> Orc…

MB

Your claim was: "Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

NoMe does not support that claim. As I demonstrated. Eru is the one who altered their fundamental fate.
"“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique."
Do the Valar know and fully perceive the pattern of Elves and Men, such that a Vala on his own can alter their fundamental nature?

Noting that in Comment 4 Tolkien wrote: "“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique

 

[Matthew Bailey]

It is not rehousing. It is altering the fundamental nature, the fea, of the Incarnate.
"it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case"



No, he does not:
"But whether they could have ‘souls’ or ‘spirits’ seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’, I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them."



And? You need to show that he changed his mind.
That letter does not indicate he changed his mind.


Your claim was: "Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

NoMe does not support that claim. As I demonstrated. Eru is the one who altered their fundamental fate.
"“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique."
Do the Valar know and fully perceive the pattern of Elves and Men, such that a Vala on his own can alter their fundamental nature?

Noting that in Comment 4 Tolkien wrote: "“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique

So… Melkor… Elves/Humans → Orcs?

And no Fëa is repeated. The Fëar of each remained the same, with an alteration of the “code” for the Longevity of the Hröaic Nasser involved.

You are claiming Melkor outright Created the Orcs, here.

While Tolkien entertained that, the act would not have been repeatable, as Eru could alter the demands of such an act, while not being able to withdraw the ability.

And the Valar are not made of Fëaic and/or Hröaic Nasser nor Erma.

They are “Something else.” The Catholic and Judaic Angelology go into arcane and obscure territory with regard to “Are Angels REALLY “Real” even,” and suggest that they are something VERY MUCH LIKE Tolkien’s Fanar/Phânya (Ephemeral Suggestions to our senses that they ‘coalesce’ into something we mistake for Physical). Tolkien’s use of a word for “Cloud” or “Vapour” comes straight from Aquinas, too. But the Latin term (which it has been 30 years since I read it, or discussed it with a Jesuit friend who started teaching me the difference between the Vocabularium/Vocabularia Laicorum and Vocabularium/Vocabularia Clericorum/Sacerdotii — The Theological Vocubulary the Church uses when speaking to the Lay Congregants, and the Language they use when speaking among themselves, or to a class at a Seminary or to the students of a Catholic University’s Theological Major. Technically they have a separate Vocabularium/Vocabularia for the Lay Clergy, such as Deacons).

But the AINUR (not just Valar) could make Phânya of (the appearance or substance¹ of) any Nässer they wished, as long as they had not debased the Phânya in such a way as to move it closer to Hröa.

But you seem to want to oppose everything I have ever said, using what are poor, poor textual exegetion or exegesical methods. Rather like a Biblical Literalist, in fact. Especially those unwilling to learn Greek, Latin, or Aramaic (or Saxon, French, Coptic, Spanish, Portugeuse, etc. for later works written leading-up to, during, or post Reformation, or those written as a Bridge from Pagan Polytheism… or Hebrew for the Old Testament), and think even the English of King James is identical to Modern English, or that the Theological Terminology is identical to the Vernacular (The biggest examples of this error is in words like “Kinds” and “Like,” but these are relatively inconsequential to other terms, like “Same,” “Substance,” “Making” and “Creating” in English, given the Multiplicity of Greek and Hebrew terms used for either²) .

So… How is it Melkor did these things without permission, and in defiance of the “Natural State of Marriage” regarding the Sexual Act of Reproduction, while Eru apparently had to stick his fingers in the universe every time an elf hiccoughed (not a very safe thing, as that risks universal annihilation — nihilism)?

MB

1. See the Early Heresies over Monophysitism, Nestorism, Paleologism, Manichaeanism, and others that dealt with the word “Substance” in the Credo:

Consubstantial with the Father.

And the issue over ὁμοούσιος (Homoousia — Same Substance… Was Jesus AS MAN “the same SUBSTANCE AS GOD SINCE HE WAS GOD?!?!?” The answer is NO/Yes! — The Capitalization is to emphasize the paradox’s divisions).

2. Same

αμετάβλητο - ametavlito, το πανομοιότυπο - to panamoíótupo, ίδιο/ίδιος - idio/idios (and Idiots — similar to Solipsism, but without the identification, only inability to contextualize/understand beyond the self), παρόμοιος - paramoios, ομοιος - (h)omoios (Root of the above ὁμοούσιος), etc… And that isn’t even getting into “Similar,” “Alike”, “Idetical,” “Exactly the same,” “Exactly the same AND Identical” (The root of the Mathematical Identities of =, ==, and ===, or =, ≡, ≣. The term “=“ means something like “Anything that can take the place of something similar” so:
• (2 + 2) = (4)
• (4 - 0) = (4)
• (⌊10³⁰⁰⁰⋅π⌋−10⋅⌊10²⁹⁹⁹⋅π⌋) = 4
• ∑᷊ [-1, ∞] = −¹/₂ʳ = 2 + 1 + ¹/₂ + ¹/₄ + ¹/₁₆ + ¹/₆₄ + ⋯= 4
• x∣¬P1(x)∧¬P2(x)∧¬P3(x)x∣¬P1(x)∧¬P2(x)∧¬P3(x)
∧¬P5(x)...∧¬PN(x)∧x≤N∧¬P5(x)...∧¬PN(x)∧x≤N
= 4

The Mathematical Operator == or “≡” (with some caveats about WHICH MATH) means “exactly alike/Identical” but not “Exactly Alike, Identical, and the Same”

So:

• 4 = 4
• 2 + 2 = 2 + 2
etc.

Whereas === or ≣ (or “≡” in some forms of math that have only two forms of basic identity… and we haven’t even dealt with “≈”, “≈≈” or “≈≈≈”) means “Exactly the same, Identical, and Identical in space-time.”

• 4 = (The 4 on the left side)
• The Dutch Elm Tree in your front yard at the house you lived in from 1980 to 1990 = The Dutch Elm Tree in your front yard at the house you lived in from 1980 to 1990.
• And I can’t do Topological representations here, which is where this is most common, but… Examples:
– a Donut = Coffee Cup in Topological definition
– a Glazed Donut == a Glazed Donut in Topological Definition
– The ONLY Glazed donut bought at 2pm by Fred at Duncan Donuts on Peachtree in Georgia on February 29, 2013 === The ONLY Glazed donut bought at 2pm by Fred at Duncan Donuts on Peachtree in Georgia on February 29, 2013.

But these have to do with Exegesis because it was principally the Jews, Catholics, and Church of England/Scotland (Episcopalian and Presbyterian Churches) that made explicit use of the original language whenever possible, and the Continental Protestant, and the American Protestant, and especially Evangelical Faiths tended to have difficulty with sorting out the original textual language. The reasons behind that were valid in the 19th Century, but like much in Religion, the Modern Sciences caused some “troubles” with pretty-much every aspect of the Western Religions who did not back away from Textual Literalism. The Jesuits are thrilled with the challenge, while other groups are less enthusiastic about ambiguity.

Edit:

Did you not see my comment about pp.191-… of the Peter Hastings Letter?

Or that I mentioned prior comments that suggest different possibilities?

There is something in that text you seem determined to NOT DO!

Go beyond “Text” to “Context!”
Or to go from Scipture, to Apocrypha (Notes, Discussions with himself or others, etc.), to Theologia (from Tolkien Scholars to the Ultimate Source: Catholic Theology):

Letters; p. 190-191; Kindle.
… since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God,

Tolkien says various versions of this same thing many places.

I already looked for everything I could to indicate why I would be wrong.

Why is because of one word that the Modern Sciences are based-upon, and prior to that formalization in 1955 by Karl popper, it was regular Practice among the Clergy for quite some time, even if the Universities prior to the Secular University were spotty in their observation of that word, and took to Khunian Positivism for most of the Church History (why the Jesuits had such a troubled history at times in their relationships with other Monastic Orders).

But, to continue… To go back a page:

Ibid, p.190.
Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite
a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what ‘wizards’ are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator’s right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a ‘mystery’, not without pointers to the solution). Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. ‘The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.’ In the legends of the Elder Days it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the ‘gods’, let alone of God.

Tolkien here says “Treebeard and Frodo do not know what they are talking about.”

Thus, we cannot USE ANYTHING THEY SAY, even if in agreement with Tolkien, about what is and isn’t possible for Melkor to do. Tolkien struggled mightily with that, as he was loath to take-on the role of the “Satanic Diabolus” of Melkor the Morgoth Bauglir, nor of his lieutenant Devil Sauron The Dark Lord of the Rings. The lesson of Saruman was something Tolkien took deadly serious, given instructions to his sons, among his own CONSTANT “But I can’t,” “I recoil at,” “I cannot abide,” “The idea repels me,” and so on at every instance of having to consider “Just WHAT DID the Source of ALL EVIL IN THE UNIVERSE “DO” to Make/Create that Evil?

So… We have to go to Theology. Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas were those who most influenced Tolkien (Says Shippey, Drout, and Hostetter, among others)…

But we do have a few statements from Tolkien in Letters and HoM-e, which include such gems as:

Ibid.
I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere ‘counterfeits’, and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no ‘aware’ metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested.

“I am not sure about Trolls.”

While he above questions that the Elves are “just” what Melkor used to “Make” the Orcs, the “I am not sure about Trolls.”, indicates that he might be thinking of a later comment he makes about Melkor CREATING THE ORCS (at the least and most the Very First Generation, along with the “other sorts of Trolls” he mentioned, with “other origins.” After that, due to Catholic Theology concerning God’s ability to “Punish/Correct” Sin, Melkor would have not been able to repeat that act without expending himself TOTALLY to do so. Prior to the Act, Eru would, like the Catholic God, have been forbidden by his “own NATURAL LAW” from doing anything to stop the “Sin” or “Violation of Enumerated Law”³ ), but we have a far more direct quote to that effect on p.195:

Ibid, p.195
So in this myth, it is ‘feigned’ (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special ‘sub-creative’ powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they ‘fell’, as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things ‘for himself, to be their Lord’, these would then ‘be’, even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other ‘rational’ creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least ‘be’ real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even ‘mocking’ the Children of God. They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad.

Tolkien does not just drop suggestions like this haphazardly.

So… The Ultimate Source of All Evil, who seeks to violate all Axani, and would violate every Únati if there was a way to do so, WOULD DO THE MOST EVIL THING POSSIBLE. That is Catholicism 101, and something Tolkien RIGHTLY FEARED GIVEN HE BELIEVED IT AS DEEPLY AS HE DID.

It is here that we do not need Eru for anything but “Permission.”

Tolkien already said that, as I quoted.

God doesn’t stick his fingers in the Universe without risking its annihilation, as I already pointed-out (again, basic Catholic Theology, and why they Exported God OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE at some point — The debate over that “when” is ongoing).

There is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between Consubstantiation, and the Altering of the fabric of Reality. This is why Catholicism has the Angels and Saints as “Intermediaries” to “Do stuff” inside the Universe.

St. Gabriel: “Hey God! This Nephilim just popped-up out of the Ocean? Shouldn’t you smite it?”

God: “Yes! You shall smite it in my name!”

St. Gabriel: “Smite at THEE FOUL NEPHELIM IN THE NAME OF ELOHIM/YHWH/GOD/Etc. The Creator and Maker of All things (including you, apparently)!”

Rampaging Nephelim: “Aazrrrggggg!!!! God has smitten me and I am dead, even though it was Gabriel’s Sword/Spear/Lance/Lightning-Bolt/Fist that God used in the Smiting. <Deceasing Noises>”

Divine Providence, And the things associated with it are not the same as “Alterations within the Fabric of the Universe” those are mediated by the Angels (and later Saints).

And in the case of Beren and Lúthien, it wasn’t Eru who did it. He was merely “Appealed to.” Again… Eru “Yeah, we had this discussion before. You have the Power, and I give you permission. Body-swap away, Manwë (or more likely Aulë and Námo/Mandos — That’s sort of their area of expertise).

Text is great, but it isn’t the end of the Story. Tolkien says so himself (Fundamentally Catholic — meaning you cannot ignore what his Faith demands of him, which he says in that same Letter).

3. The Catholic Article on The Law of God is pretty good in laying out the basic differentiation between the “Enumerated” (Civil/Ecclesiatic) Law and the “Natural” (Divine) Law.

Euthyphro not withstanding, God does not Violate either.

But God CANNOT VIOLATE NATURAL LAW, any more than we can.

And, to make clear…

I did suggest that there could be something else Tolkien determined (and why I considered that not likely).

Notice it was Feb 21 that he made his post, and that I didn’t respond until a few days ago (I saws it on Feb 21, when he posted it).

That was because I was “looking into the issue” when I could over the intervening time, as well or poorly as that turned out to be. And spending weeks looking for reasons that it wouldn’t be what I figured led to nothing that categorically ruled it out, and much that suggested Eru wouldn’t risk blowing-up creation for something the Valar could do in their sleep.

But/And/So/Because of/Thus… given the Text, Context, Apocrypha, and Theologia otherwise, combined with the demands of his Faith… Not Likely.

MB
Sorry… Doing this on my iPhone via WiFi, as to why it is separate.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

And no Fëa is repeated. The Fëar of each remained the same, with an alteration of the “code” for the Longevity of the Hröaic Nasser involved.

"it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case"
The alteration of ""code"" is from Eru.

While Tolkien entertained that, the act would not have been repeatable, as Eru could alter the demands of such an act, while not being able to withdraw the ability.

And the Valar are not made of Fëaic and/or Hröaic Nasser nor Erma.

I have said nothing about what the Valar are made of.
Your claims are:
"The Valar DEFINITELY had the capacity to make Tuor an Elf."
&
"Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

To support that you supplied:

"The Nature of Midle-earth; Part II, Chapter XV: Elvish Reincarnation; p. 249
It is clear that the Valar had power and skill, among them, to form from the substance of Arda any thing, however intricate in design, of which they knew and fully perceived the pattern. But as was seen in the case of Aulë and the Dwarves they had no power to give free mind and will to anything that they made."

Do the Valar know and fully perceive the pattern of Elves and Men, such that a Vala on his own can alter their fundamental nature?
Are the fear of Elves & Men of the substance of Arda? Or:
Noting that in Comment 4 Tolkien wrote: "“With regard to spirits: No fëa can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique"

...do they proceed uniquely from Eru?

Did you not see my comment about pp.191-… of the Peter Hastings Letter?

Do you mean where you said:
"Later in the letter in contradicts that they couldn’t make Souls, when it discusses Melkor’s possible “Creation” of Orcs/Trolls/etc."

...and where I quoted from later in the letter? Where Tolkien did not say they could make souls...

Or that I mentioned prior comments that suggest different possibilities?

There is something in that text you seem determined to NOT DO!

Go beyond “Text” to “Context!”

The ""context"" of Letter 153 (pertinent to this discussion) is "it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case".

Tolkien says various versions of this same thing many places.

I already looked for everything I could to indicate why I would be wrong.

What thing? That the Valar could make fear? Or that the Valar could alter the fundamental nature of Elves and Men ?

But, to continue… To go back a page:

Tolkien here says “Treebeard and Frodo do not know what they are talking about.”

Thus, we cannot USE ANYTHING THEY SAY, even if in agreement with Tolkien, about what is and isn’t possible for Melkor to do.

I don't recall mentionibg either Frodo or Treebeard...
(Though what you seem to be claiming seems rather odd. You seem to be claiming that Tolkien said Treebeard was wrong and Frodo was correct. But since he said Treebeard was wrong, then Tolkien's saying Frodo was correct has to be ignored.)

While he above questions that the Elves are “just” what Melkor used to “Make” the Orcs, the “I am not sure about Trolls.”, indicates that he might be thinking of a later comment he makes about Melkor CREATING THE ORCS (at the least and most the Very First Generation, along with the “other sorts of Trolls” he mentioned, with “other origins.” After that, due to Catholic Theology concerning God’s ability to “Punish/Correct” Sin, Melkor would have not been able to repeat that act without expending himself TOTALLY to do so. Prior to the Act, Eru would, like the Catholic God, have been forbidden by his “own NATURAL LAW” from doing anything to stop the “Sin” or “Violation of Enumerated Law”³ ), but we have a far more direct quote to that effect on p.195:



Tolkien does not just drop suggestions like this haphazardly.

Where Tolkien continues with:
"I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’"

So far, what I see is you claiming that Letter 153 support's your assertions:
"The Valar DEFINITELY had the capacity to make Tuor an Elf."
&
"Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

...while in Letter 153, Tolkien says:
"it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case"
&
"I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible ‘delegation’"

...while also seeming to claim that the Elvish Reincarnation text shows that the Valar:
"clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

When it shows no such thing.

And in the case of Beren and Lúthien, it wasn’t Eru who did it. He was merely “Appealed to.” Again… Eru “Yeah, we had this discussion before. You have the Power, and I give you permission. Body-swap away, Manwë (or more likely Aulë and Námo/Mandos — That’s sort of their area of expertise).

What "Body-swap"?

"the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

 

[Elthir]

Your [Matthew Bailey's] claim was: "Here, the Valar clearly could make Tuor an “Elf” if they could make Lúthien a “human!”,"

NoMe does not support that claim.

Indeed. Also, it's interesting that the passage being quoted from The Nature of Middle-Earth is dated to c. 1959, as is the text Aman and Mortal Men (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed), in which Tolkien writes:

"Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda), and the length of their life-span."

The fancy lettering could not is as published. I added the blue however.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

Lúthien, Beren, Tuor, and Idril already had “Free Mind.”

The Valar aren’t doing anything but changing the wrapping paper.

MB

Edit:

I already addressed everything else you keep going over.

That you can’t see it isn’t my problem.


And you keep avoiding the problem of Morgoth: Orcs who breed Orcs from Humans and Elves, or else Created Ex-Nihilo by Melkor.

If changing a Human to an Elf or vice-versa is a “Fundamental Change in Nature impossible for the Valar,” what is changing either to an Orc who breeds more Orcs, and not Humans or Elves?

Why are you giving Morgoth a pass?

Indeed. Also, it's interesting that the passage being quoted from The Nature of Middle-Earth is dated to c. 1959, as is the text Aman and Mortal Men (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed), in which Tolkien writes:

"Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda), and the length of their life-span."

The fancy lettering could not is as published. I added the blue however.

Morgoth.

Humans/Elves →Orcs who breed Orcs.

The problem isn’t soluble by the ‘Text.’

Tolkien didn’t reveal in words what the solution was.

So you have to go to tertiary sources that Tolkien based the Universe of Eä upon.

You and Tar-Elenion keep giving Melkor Morgoth Bauglir a pass on something not granted to others.

Why?

 

[Elthir]

First, keeping in mind the quotes written by JRRT himself and already provided by Tar-Elenion
(and already sourced) in this thread, . . .

I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible "delegation".

No fea can be repeated; each proceeds separately and uniquely from Eru, and so remains for ever separate and unique.

it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case:

Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda), and the length of their life-span.

. . . today I'll add the following, with Tolkien written description now in bold blue and orange:


Orcs

Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.

And a bit later in the same "orc text", JRR Tolkien writes: It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]

And once again, the fancy lettering is in the text as published, but the colours are mine; see Text VIII, Myths Transformed, also in Morgoth's Ring.

I realize that by the end of this same text, which became an "orcs [mainly] from beasts" text, JRRT doubles back to Finrod, saying that he [Finrod] probably went too far in his assertion "that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru", adding that it remains therefore "terribly possible" there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. . . . but in any case, I'll emphasize the "added later" section here: in other words, when did JRRT add the line concerning the idea that the heritable state "must" be an act of Eru?

"Later", yes; and for all we know, it was added after the main text was written. Christopher Tolkien also notes that his father subsequently added a passage in which JRRT repeats: "Orcs are beasts" -- but rather than dive deeper about this here, for the moment I'll just point anyone interested to note 10 to Text VIII concerning the reference to an Elvish strain of Orcs.


Men

The "he" below is Finrod. In his conversation with Andreth, Finrod "uncovers" a "concomitant tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster, about which human lore is unclear, or Andreth is at least unwilling to say much."

"More strictly speaking, he would say that Melkor had not 'changed' Men, but seduced them
(to allegiance) very early in their history, so that Eru had changed their 'fate'. For Melkor could seduce individual mind and wills, but he could not make this heritable, or alter (contrary to the will and design of Eru) the relation of a whole people to Time and Arda."

JRRT, Commentary to the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. And, although obviously given in the context of The Tale of Adanel (again see the Athrabeth section in Morgoth's Ring):

"The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke. saying:" Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him"

The first Voice is Eru, of course.

And so, here's the thing:

 

[Ricardo]

I think the issue of the orcs was never solved, even in Tolkien's mind. The prevalent theory is that they are corrupted elves, as stated in the Silmarillion, however, I know Tolkien wasn't happy with that concept but just couldn't find a way around since Melkor could not create true life (e.g. souls).

I believe that recreating the hroa is way within the Valar's powers, but the Fea? I am not so sure. They definitely cannot create one but can they alter it? maybe.

In the case of Beren, no change was made, they simply rebuilt the body and hosted the Fea again.

But in the case of Luthien, they gave her a body that would eventually die, would she age? it's never said, but when she died, her Fea was just "routed" a different way, instead of remaining in Mandos and eventually being re-embodied, left Arda like all mortal's souls do.

In the case of Tuor, it's a bit more complicated because I believe the elves soul have a sort of blueprint of the body. I don't know if implanting that in Tuor's fea was within the Valor's powers.

But one point to make, whether the Valar could change Tuor and Luthien themselves or not is secondary, but I don't think it was their decision, but Iluvatar's only. Nothing is said about Tuor but in the case of Luthien, Manwe consulted Iluvatar, so either Iluvatar did it himself, or the Valar did under his command, I have to guess that with Tuor it would work the same way.

 

[Elthir]

I think the issue of the orcs was never solved, even in Tolkien's mind. The prevalent theory is that they are corrupted elves, as stated in the Silmarillion, however, I know Tolkien wasn't happy with that concept but just couldn't find a way around since Melkor could not create true life (e.g. souls).

Tolkien certainly wrangled with the issue, but I also thingk. . .

. . . there's an argument to be made (at least), that Tolkien landed on: Orks from Men with a measure of Ork-formed Maiar in the mix.

That said, I wonder if Tolkien "would have" had his characters, in-story, expound upon the matter "more" than we find in the relatively late note to The Drúedain.

my argument, not given here obviously, includes the "evidence" set out in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, especially Text X and commentary; as well as Tolkien's note (note 5) to The Drúedain in Unfinished Tales

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Indeed. Also, it's interesting that the passage being quoted from The Nature of Middle-Earth is dated to c. 1959, as is the text Aman and Mortal Men (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed), in which Tolkien writes:

"Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda), and the length of their life-span."

The fancy lettering could not is as published. I added the blue however.

Yes. And noting dates, there is Letter 325, from 1971:
"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time – whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ‘immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing."

 

[Elthir]

Another great find! Excellent Tar-E!

🐾