The Great Balrog Debate

[Ermundo]

Crazy impulsive Noldor_returned person!

You're a great guy mate but let's leave all personel comments aside.


As for old days, I'm going to wait for more people to join so that we can have an official debate going on. If we ever come to that though, I'd like to side with the people arguing for the Balrog having wings.





Morgoththe1
Dark Lord of nothing

 

[Noldor_returned]

At the moment, we have Morgoth saying that Balrogs have wings, and I am against him. Other takers (and a judge)?

 

[YayGollum]

Well, to speed things along, unless another feels like evening teams out, I can be the judge. Or I could jump onto either team, of course.

 

[Erurainon]

I personally think, that when Melkor designed them he was free to include wings, and from what i see later in the books (the winged Durin's Bane; Gondolin) those wings were just ornamental, i.e. Melkor put them just to make the Balrogs more scary.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Well I take it you're joining the side that Balrogs do have wings with morgoththe1 against me and ??? Onc this other person joins my side, we'll get going, so long as Yay agrees to be judge.

 

[Ermundo]

Umm, actually I have found out that I will not be able to make it to the debate. I lost my copy of LOTR, the Sil and the rest of Tolkiens books at the library have a waiting list of 200 North, and I have to go the bathroom.

...Anyway, I'm sorry, I know I'm a hippocrit, but I can't make it. Sorry.

 

[Grond]

Top.

I've been on both sides of this issue for longer than most of you have been alive. My opinion now is shaped by a few events. One would be the fight with Gandalf on the Bridge and then falling down the chasm into the depths of Khadad-Dum. My question to all of you... if the Balrog had wings... why didn't it simply fly away from Gandalf? It seems to me if it could fly, it could have escaped the battle with Gandalf at any time.

In the Silmarillion, the Balrogs chased Ungoliant yet lost her in her dark webs. If they could have flown, you would think they would have been able to keep tabs on her. I'll reread more of the Balrog passages out of the works and post again. With so many references of Balrog's being ground based, it would appear that if they did have wings, they were Penguin wings which couldn't be used for flight.

Cheers,

grond

 

[YayGollum]

Well, neither of those points are especially perfect. Why didn't the Balrog run away from the evil torturer Gandalf? He wasn't a wimp, could be one answer. Why did the Balrogs lose Ungoliant? She was too smart for them, could be one answer.

 

[Gothmog]

I personally think, that when Melkor designed them he was free to include wings, and from what i see later in the books (the winged Durin's Bane; Gondolin) those wings were just ornamental, i.e. Melkor put them just to make the Balrogs more scary.

Interesting point. Just one question, since us Balrogs walked around cloaked in shadow to the point that our shapes were only just visible, how would anyone even notice wings?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

I think it's time we settled this once and for all. Do Balrogs have wings? Please, nobody bite my head off for this, but I think it had to happen.

Jeesssss! Well, if there's nothing else to talk about, we can always get into it about this! It's a subject that can never be settled because everything Tolkien wrote about Balrogs is vague and/or contradictory enough so that the interpretation can go either way (however I think Grond's ideas make the most sense).

I myself settled this in my own mind long ago by compromise: A Balrog has ONE WING running down his spine! Why is it that no one takes me seriously on this???

Barley

 

[Ermundo]

Well then, both seriously and not-so, I would label that there demon, "CRIPPLED."

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well then, both seriously and not-so, I would label that there demon, "CRIPPLED."

Yes, but it settles the argument once and for all, O Thou of the Spinning Avatar!

Barley

 

[Noldor_returned]

Not quite. Those who are arguing for no wings have to settle for one, which isn't what they were saying.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Not quite. Those who are arguing for no wings have to settle for one, which isn't what they were saying.

Same with those who argue two. This way, each has half. Half a loaf...

Barley

 

[Chymaera]

The third side of this debate is that it doesn't matter if Balrogs had wings or not.

But if it came to a debate I would go with no wings.

Consider how many times the eagles foiled Morgoth at the Gates of Angband and fly away and nothing ever came in pursuit.

(did that last line make any sense? )

the air war did not start until the coming of the wing dragons

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

The third side of this debate is that it doesn't matter if Balrogs had wings or not.

But if it came to a debate I would go with no wings.

Consider how many times the eagles foiled Morgoth at the Gates of Angband and fly away and nothing ever came in pursuit.

(did that last line make any sense? )

the air war did not start until the coming of the wing dragons

What you say makes perfect sense (unless JRR forgot that Balrogs have 'em). So much so that I will now change my position: I now firmly plant myself in the BALROGS HAVE NO WINGS camp!

Barley

 

[Ithrynluin]

Every time this topic pops up, a Balrog loses its wings.

Consider how many times the eagles foiled Morgoth at the Gates of Angband and fly away and nothing ever came in pursuit.

Wow, that is probably one of the best anti-wings arguments I've ever read. Great find, Chymaera!

Barley, welcome to the wingless "camp". Though I started out as a pro-winger, I've gradually crossed over to the other side over the past couple years. Though winged Balrogs are perhaps more fun to imagine, wingless ones make immeasurably more sense.

So give it up already, pro-winger scum!

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Re: Every time this topic pops up, a Balrog loses its wings.

Barley, welcome to the wingless "camp".

*takes deep dignified bow*

Barley

 

[Noldor_returned]

If you follow that logic, penguins don't have wings. See, it would be like this:

Albatross and birds of flight attack penguins and fly away and do not get pursued. Therefore penguins do not have wings. Because according to your argument eagles attacked and were not pursued by Balrogs so they must not have wings. Mayhaps Balrogs are flightless?

 

[Ithrynluin]

To me, the main idea behind this question has always been whether Balrogs can fly or not, and I believe the majority of pro-wing proponents are arguing that Balrogs have wings and can therefore fly. Only a tiny fraction proposes the possibility that the wings are not functional and serve only decorational or/and intimidational purposes; frankly, I don't really care if Balrogs have wings or not, but in my opinion, the supporting texts are strongly indicative of flightless Balrogs.