The Great Balrog Debate

Barliman Butterbur · May 7, 2007

Noldor_returned said:
If you follow that logic, penguins don't have wings. See, it would be like this:

Albatross and birds of flight attack penguins and fly away and do not get pursued. Therefore penguins do not have wings. Because according to your argument eagles attacked and were not pursued by Balrogs so they must not have wings. Mayhaps Balrogs are flightless?

Your syllogism is flawed, if only because penguins DO have wings. The argument about Balrogs has never been nor ever will be settled. I switched camps because of the convincing logic our friend Chymaera put forward. However that still doesn't prove anything one way or the other, because Tolkien's writings are vague, unclear and imprecise on the matter. And as far as I know, he never said one way or another in any of his private writings.

Barley

Noldor_returned · May 7, 2007

So The Fellowship Balrog has wings...it says so and the exact phrase has been posted enough around the place. I will post it if someone queries it, but I thought of something. It may go against what I have been saying somewhat, but I had a discussion recently on another forum about a certain term used. I'll just get the extract...

His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

This is when Gandalf is describing the battle between him and the Balrog. They fell from the bridge, and fell into a lake. So, what was this slime, because later,

The sun shone fiercely there, but all was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame.

So quite possibly, Balrogs can choose their own form, to a certain extent. It would account for the abnormalities in the descriptions between the Fellowship and Silmarillion.

For instance, all Balrogs have a basic form. To this, they can add certain features such as wings, because after all, they turn to slime but can re-ignite themselves. Does everyone follow?

Barliman Butterbur · May 7, 2007

I don't see anything you said or quoted in your last post that even hints at wings.

Barley

Annaheru · May 8, 2007

Barliman Butterbur said:
I don't see anything you said or quoted in your last post that even hints at wings.

Barley

aye, and the rather infamous passage I believe is being refered to can easily (and correctly, IMHO) be understood as a simile. . . or at least that's how I've understood it since I was in 3rd grade (back before my grammer was subverted by English teachers that no longer cared ).

As noted above there will never be absolute proof one way or another- just clues that must be interpreted.

Barliman Butterbur · May 8, 2007

Annaheru said:
aye, and the rather infamous passage I believe is being refered to can easily (and correctly, IMHO) be understood as a simile. . . or at least that's how I've understood it since I was in 3rd grade (back before my grammer was subverted by English teachers that no longer cared ).

As noted above there will never be absolute proof one way or another- just clues that must be interpreted.

Your grammer was subverted??? Grampa must be furious!!!

Barley

Noldor_returned · May 15, 2007

There are two passages. One, which goes along the lines of, "and the Balrog's wings stretched up to the roof" or something like that. The other is where the Balrog becomes slime. Slime has no exact shape, so maybe Balrogs can change their shape to a certain extent. It would provide an answer: Balrogs can choose to have wings or not.

After all, and I could be mistaken, but aren't they Maiar? The same race as Gandalf, Saruman etc. In Valinor, the "wizards" had no true form if I remember correctly, and they chose their guises to make them seem more like Man. So perhaps the Balrogs, being not as powerful had variations of one design.

Barliman Butterbur · May 15, 2007

Noldor_returned said:
There are two passages. One, which goes along the lines of, "and the Balrog's wings stretched up to the roof" or something like that.

Without checking, I believe that passage refers to shadow-shapes, and too vague to form any solid conclusions about, hence the never-ending debate.

Barley

Chymaera · May 16, 2007

Barliman Butterbur said:
What you say makes perfect sense (unless JRR forgot that Balrogs have 'em). So much so that I will now change my position: I now firmly plant myself in the BALROGS HAVE NO WINGS camp!

Barley

Wow, I am influenza *cough* I mean influentual

Ithrynluin said:
Wow, that is probably one of the best anti-wings arguments I've ever read. Great find, Chymaera!

It was in my head all this time

Noldor_returned said:
So The Fellowship Balrog has wings...it says so and the exact phrase has been posted enough around the place. I will post it if someone queries it, but I thought of something. It may go against what I have been saying somewhat, but I had a discussion recently on another forum about a certain term used. I'll just get the extract...

This is when Gandalf is describing the battle between him and the Balrog. They fell from the bridge, and fell into a lake. So, what was this slime, because later,

If you are a large demon of darkness and fire stuck in a dark cave there would be a lot of smoke and shadow in your immedate vicinity and this would cause an observer to take this smoke and shadow for wings.

If you throw a burning log into a lake and then pull the log out of the lake the wet ash that clings to the log could be mistaken for slime.

Whatever shape-changing abilities Balrogs had were lost back in the First age. Even Morgoth and Sauron lost these powers.

Ermundo · May 16, 2007

Chymaera said:
If you are a large demon of darkness and fire stuck in a dark cave there would be a lot of smoke and shadow in your immedate vicinity and this would cause an observer to take this smoke and shadow for wings.

Naturally, smoke doesn't take a specific shape. It only takes the shape of the object it's contained in. So, to say that someone would mistake a huge amount of smoke and darkness (which problably behaves in the same way as smoke) for wings, doesn't add up. But that's how the narrator described the whole ordeal. Assuming that the narrator is an honest man, than the Balrog definitely had a great will over the shape of the smoke, and made the shape of it that of wings. And if that's the case, than it's safe to say that the Balrog had a degree of control over his own shape as well.

Miss Insanity · May 16, 2007

I think it's fairly safe to say that Balrogs cannot fly. Even in the film version of FOTR, the Balrog never actually uses his wings. When the bridge broke beneath him, why not just support himself with those wings? Also, they seem fairly small and frail in relation to his body wieght/size.

I therefore make the assumption that the wings are mainly for show. They act like a lizard's frill, or peacock's feathers. Meant to intimidate it's enemies. (Although I don't know if a giant fire-breathing monster needs wings to be intimidating).

Ermundo · May 17, 2007

Miss Insanity said:
(Although I don't know if a giant fire-breathing monster needs wings to be intimidating).

Maybe. Maybe not. Most of the time the bloody creature is hiding behind a cloud, soooo... I dunno.

Noldor_returned · May 18, 2007

Chymaera said:
Wow, I am influenza *cough* I mean influentual

It was in my head all this time

If you are a large demon of darkness and fire stuck in a dark cave there would be a lot of smoke and shadow in your immedate vicinity and this would cause an observer to take this smoke and shadow for wings.

If you throw a burning log into a lake and then pull the log out of the lake the wet ash that clings to the log could be mistaken for slime.

Whatever shape-changing abilities Balrogs had were lost back in the First age. Even Morgoth and Sauron lost these powers.

I was under the impression Morgoth and Sauron could no longer alter their appearance because they remained in one form too long. It wasn't that they lost their power, from what I remember.

Smoke can cause the illusion of wings? But the passage says:

...For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted...It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small...

If Gandalf could be seen from a distance and he was small, I'm fairly sure the wings which are noted could be seen. So, the wings could be seen easily. I don't know how you can continue to argue that the wings don't exist, when they were quite clearly seen.

Ermundo said:
Naturally, smoke doesn't take a specific shape. It only takes the shape of the object it's contained in. So, to say that someone would mistake a huge amount of smoke and darkness (which problably behaves in the same way as smoke) for wings, doesn't add up. But that's how the narrator described the whole ordeal. Assuming that the narrator is an honest man, than the Balrog definitely had a great will over the shape of the smoke, and made the shape of it that of wings. And if that's the case, than it's safe to say that the Balrog had a degree of control over his own shape as well.

Hear hear! And it wasn't even the smoke that made the wings.

Miss Insanity said:
I think it's fairly safe to say that Balrogs cannot fly. Even in the film version of FOTR, the Balrog never actually uses his wings. When the bridge broke beneath him, why not just support himself with those wings? Also, they seem fairly small and frail in relation to his body wieght/size.

I therefore make the assumption that the wings are mainly for show. They act like a lizard's frill, or peacock's feathers. Meant to intimidate it's enemies. (Although I don't know if a giant fire-breathing monster needs wings to be intimidating).

Please do not use the movie as a source. It has little standing in serious discussions.

Ermundo said:
Maybe. Maybe not. Most of the time the bloody creature is hiding behind a cloud, soooo... I dunno.

However, when you can see it, you can see the wings (or at least that's what it says in the Fellowship).

Majimaune · May 18, 2007

They have wings but can't fly. I think that is a pretty good conclusion (I tried to end the other thread or this before and it didn't work. Will it work this time?).

Barliman Butterbur · May 18, 2007

Majimaune said:
They have wings but can't fly. I think that is a pretty good conclusion (I tried to end the other thread or this before and it didn't work. Will it work this time?).

No, it won't work this time or any time, because my idea trumps it: They have ONE wing running down their spine. This satisfies both sides of the argument.

Barley

Majimaune · May 18, 2007

Barliman Butterbur said:
No, it won't work this time or any time, because my idea trumps it: They have ONE wing running down their spine. This satisfies both sides of the argument.

Barley

Yes I remember when you said that. It stumped a lot of people, they didn't have a comeback for it.

Ermundo · May 18, 2007

Majimaune said:
Yes I remember when you said that. It stumped a lot of people, they didn't have a comeback for it.

Ermundo said:
Well then, both seriously and not-so, I would label that there demon, "CRIPPLED."

Need I say more?

Majimaune · May 18, 2007

No you needn't.

Chymaera · May 19, 2007

Noldor_returned said:
I was under the impression Morgoth and Sauron could no longer alter their appearance because they remained in one form too long. It wasn't that they lost their power, from what I remember.

It takes power to change shape. Morgoth was putting his power into making orcs and dragons and other evil things. Sauron had great shape-shifting power once, remerber Wolf-Sauron vs. Huan.
Sauron lost his power when his body was lost when Númenor sunk. His spirit returned to Barad-dur and used the power in the One ring to take form again. After Isildur took his ring it took him about 2500 years to take a new shape.
(You could write whole novels around every one hunting for a ring of power)

It is obvious to me that Balrogs on evidence have tongues (chatty buggers them Balrogs)

Same arguement for wings (believe what makes you happy) :smile:

Noldor_returned · May 20, 2007

Well are we able to agree on a conclusion? Balrogs choose their own form, and wings are a design feature? Or do they all have to be the same?

After all, humans developed differently, for instance some have black hair, some have brown. Why can't it be that Balrogs developed differently, or that they can choose to have wings if they want to or not?

Chymaera · May 20, 2007

Here is the thing: Balrogs are lesser Maia and were from Ilúvartas head. So they were first spirites before they came to Arda and did not have bodies. All they have to do is drop their present form and they can fly through the world as spirites, get to their destination and reassume their form.

Why have heavy meat wings when you don't need them?

Morgoth and Sauron and Balrogs thought they were going to rule the World. They did not anticipate their defeat and loss of their natural powers and did not incorperate the power of flight into a cloak that they wore in the world. That would be defeatist.

The Great Balrog Debate

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