The Heirs of Isildur

[elf_queen]

There's one thing in the Lord of the Rings that I don't get. Gondor obviously hadn't had a king for a very long time. Yet Aragorn obviously desended from the kings. If Aragorn had people to descend from, then how was the line of kings ever broken?

 

[jallan]

If you are talking about the film, no-one has been able to figure out what the political situation is there.

In the books Isildur and his brother Anardil were the co-kings and founders of Gondor while their father Elendil founded the northern kingdom of Arnor.

After Elendil and Anardil were killed in the War of the Last Alliance, Isildur as the eldest son of Elendil, took for himself the kingship of Arnor and had his nephew, Meneldil son of Anardil, made King of Gondor.

The line continued to King Ondoher.

But when Ondoher King of Gondor and his two sons were slain there was no clear heir to the throne. At that time King Avedui of Athedain descendant of Isildur put in a claim. But Arvedui was rejected in favor of Ondoher’s distant cousin Eärnil. Eärnur his son later succeeded to the throne, but foolishly answered a challenge to personal combat from the Lord of Minas Morgul and was never heard of again.

At this point the line of the kings of Gondor descended from Meneldil was broken.

Now the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenorean blood. So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish. Therefore, though the years lengthened, the Steward continued to rule Gondor, and the crown of Elendil lay in the lap of King Eärnil in the Houses of the Dead, where Eärnur had left it.

Meanwhile the kingdom of Arthedain had also fallen and Arvedui with it. Arvedui’s son Aranarth took on himself only the title of Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North. Aranarth had a reasonable claim to the throne of Gondor, but presumably was also one of those whose claim not all would allow (and he had no power to push it by force even if he had wished to do so). No-one wanted civil war.

Accordingly the Stewards ruled until Aranarth’s descendant Aragorn claimed the throne after saving the city of Minas Tirith.

We are not told whether there were any descendants of Minardil still about when Aragorn made his claim who might also have had some degree of valid claim.

 

[Ravenna]

Just a small note of clarification.
Arvedui, last King of Arthedain was a direct descendant of Valandil (I think) who was Isildur's youngest son and who had stayed behind in Rivendell when his father and brothers went off to fight in the Last Alliance. He then became King of Arnor in place of Isildur. Therefore Aragorn was directly descended from Elendil and Isildur.

 

[Flame of Udûn]

Originally posted by jallan
In the books Isildur and his brother Anardil were the co-kings and founders of Gondor while their father Elendil founded the northern kingdom of Arnor.

Elendil's son and Isildur's brother was Anárion, not Anardil.

 

[Inderjit S]

Where did you get Anardil (Sun-friend?) from? I always though that the final form of Anárion's name was Anárion? I cannot ever recall him being called Anardil and even if he was it wouldn't stand since Anárion is found in canonical writings. (LoTR.)

Arvedui, last King of Arthedain was a direct descendant of Valandil (I think) who was Isildur's youngest son and who had stayed behind in Rivendell when his father and brothers went off to fight in the Last Alliance. He then became King of Arnor in place of Isildur. Therefore Aragorn was directly descended from Elendil and Isildur.

I'm confused. If Aragorn is descended from Isildur then he would naturally be a descendant of Elendil. After Elendil was slain, Isildur claimed the be High-King over Arnor and Gondor, and put Meneldil in charge of Gondor. With the death of Isildur his son, Valandil, who had been living in Rivendell, received the sceptre. Isildur had the "right" over his father's kingdom, Arnor, as the eldest son. (And the only son who was alive, Anárion was of course slain by a rock cast from Barad-dur.) Valandil couldn't have been 'King of Arnor' during the Last Alliance, he was born in Rivendell, so he must have been born after Isildur fled from Minas Anor. The Heirs of Isildur (HoME 12) state that he was 11 years old at the time of the fall of Sauron. Whether this information is true or not doesn't really matter, is still gives us a rough guide on Valandil's age. The Appendix states that he doesn't become King of Arnor until 10 T.A.

 

[Ravenna]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Where did you get Anardil (Sun-friend?) from? I always though that the final form of Anárion's name was Anárion? I cannot ever recall him being called Anardil and even if he was it wouldn't stand since Anárion is found in canonical writings. (LoTR.)



I'm confused. If Aragorn is descended from Isildur then he would naturally be a descendant of Elendil. After Elendil was slain, Isildur claimed the be High-King over Arnor and Gondor, and put Meneldil in charge of Gondor. With the death of Isildur his son, Valandil, who had been living in Rivendell, received the sceptre. Isildur had the "right" over his father's kingdom, Arnor, as the eldest son. (And the only son who was alive, Anárion was of course slain by a rock cast from Barad-dur.) Valandil couldn't have been 'King of Arnor' during the Last Alliance, he was born in Rivendell, so he must have been born after Isildur fled from Minas Anor. The Heirs of Isildur (HoME 12) state that he was 11 years old at the time of the fall of Sauron. Whether this information is true or not doesn't really matter, is still gives us a rough guide on Valandil's age. The Appendix states that he doesn't become King of Arnor until 10 T.A.

Maybe I phrased it poorly. I simply meant that Valandil became King after his father Isildur's death. Not that he was King at the time of the Last Alliance.
As Jallan's reply seemed to concentrate on the Gondorian situation, I thought it might be an idea to clarify exactly how Arvedui, (and therefore Aragorn) was descended from Isildur.

 

[jallan]

Inderjit S posted:

Where did you get Anardil (Sun-friend?) from?

From a parallel universe where Tolkien decided on that name.

Actually, my memory slipped.

Valandil couldn't have been 'King of Arnor' during the Last Alliance, he was born in Rivendell, so he must have been born after Isildur fled from Minas Anor.

I think you are reading more than was intended into Ravenna very concise summary. The actual words were:

... Valandil (I think) who was Isildur's youngest son and who had stayed behind in Rivendell when his father and brothers went off to fight in the Last Alliance. He then became King of Arnor in place of Isildur.

By then Ravenna means something like “after all that Last Alliance and deaths of Anárion, Elendil and Isildur” and the words “in place of” refer to the fact that Isildur never did actually sit on the throne of Arnor. Upon Isildur’s supposed death his son Valandil was recognized as heir to the throne of Arnor in place of Isidur.

Isildur claimed the be High-King over Arnor and Gondor, and put Meneldil in charge of Gondor.

This was the crux of the claim. Arvedui states:

We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.

The argument is based on the fact that Isildur had not formally relinquished his authority over Gondor and a suppositious assertion that Isildur did not “intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.”

A counter-argument could have been that it was understood by all that Isildur was placing Gondor totally into the hands of Meneldil without the necessity of a formal renunciation of kingship, that whatever Isildur’s supposed intentions were they died with him and are moot in any case and that no king of Arnor from Valandil onward had made claim to sovereignty over Gondor by title or word or deed.

Tolkien carefully creates an argument that is strong but not conclusive as to Arvedui’s legal right to the throne of Gondor. I am reminded of the Salic Law arguments at the beginning of Shakespeare’s Henry V proving that Henry is the rightful king of France.

 

[Snaga]

There was another part to this claim. But first a small adjustment to Jallan's account is that Isildur's death was not 'supposed' but reported by Ohtar and (if I recall correctly) two other survivors from the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, who managed to reach Rivendell.

Arvedui's claim also rested on being the husband of Firiel, the only surviving child of King Ondoher. But the realms in exile had not continued the practice, begun in Numenor, of passing the Sceptre to the eldest child, whether male or female. Arvedui referred to this tradition, in the absence of a son.

This too was rejected.

As a side note, Anardil was the given name of Tar-Aldarion, the sixth king of Numenor. Later, the sixth King of Gondor, was also named Anardil.

 

[elf_queen]

Thanks everyone. You helped me understand this a lot better!

 

[Húrin Thalion]

interesting thread, very interesting. but what I find sad is that in the histories of Gondor and Arnor, so little is said about the nobles, their positions and roles, at the court and elsewhere. Do you know anymore of it?

Måns

 

[jallan]

Snaga1 posted:

But first a small adjustment to Jallan's account is that Isildur's death was not 'supposed' but reported by Ohtar and (if I recall correctly) two other survivors from the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, who managed to reach Rivendell.

In Unfinished Tales “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields” it is clear that Isildur is last seen putting on the Ring and then covering the Elendilmir with his hood as it still shone out though he was invisible. Obviously Isildur was later presumed dead but for all that was known for certain at the time Isildur might have been captured or become lost in the wilderness.

There would have been a period of decreasing hope that Isildur just might be alive.