It's a Mannish tradition that the world was once flat. In the Elvish (Western Elvish) tradition the world was always round. Thus these Western Elves thus tried to teach the Numenoreans thusly:
"And behold! the fashion of the Earth is such that a girdle may be set about it. Or as an apple it hangeth on the branches of Heaven, and it is round and fair, and the seas and lands are but the rind of the fruit, which shall abide upon the tree until the ripening that Eru hath appointed."
JRRT, The Drowning of Anadune
I depends on when he's writing. Tolkien changed his mind about the matter. I rather prefer that the world was flat and made round during the drowning of Numenor. Further, I like to think Eru shifted the world into another dimension where it existed in space and the Elves leave by departing into another plane of existence.I'd say it's a Mannish tradition that the world was once flat. In the Elvish (Western Elvish) tradition the world was always round. Thus these Western Elves thus tried to teach the Numenoreans thusly:
"And behold! the fashion of the Earth is such that a girdle may be set about it. Or as an apple it hangeth on the branches of Heaven, and it is round and fair, and the seas and lands are but the rind of the fruit, which shall abide upon the tree until the ripening that Eru hath appointed."
JRRT, The Drowning of Anadune
( . . . ) I rather prefer that the world was flat and made round during the drowning of Numenor.
If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark:Good point. However, that doesn't mean that proximity to the equator has to play a role in how hard the sun burns down and darkens the skin, where Valar influence overrides real-life natural laws. Because otherwise, for example, Valinor would not have been a paradise country, but a tropical jungle in the middle and a desert on the edges. The elves there would all be black. Also from the description of the flora and fauna it's clear that Numenor, Tol Eressea and Eldamar were climatically very temperate and mild. Ultimately it's a mythology mostly for England and Europe.
So there is no reason to think that dark-skinned humans could have evolved on Numenor (perhaps with the exception of the few Druedain who settled there, but who already had darker skins).
Heck, even speaking of the British Islands, the Welsh have some who get dark:If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark:
In my opinion, that would still be within the scope of a possible interpretation, although I'd estimate Tolkien's idea differently (rather more Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Germanic/Norse).If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark
Yes, and what me really totally annoys is, that some people call you a racist, if you say, that Tolkiens elves was not black. Tolkien had the inspiriation to his books from old european legends, in which elves, and dwarfes was always white. I really cant understand, why they didnt take black actors to play the Haradrim, which come from a very warm desert area, which will fit perfect for their black skin color?Yeah...this feels like generic high fantasy to me.
It would be different if they were from a different region that made sense (like Harad, as you said, or the Sun Lands) but as is it's rather inexplicable. Also, where did all of these black characters GO in the Third Age? Heck, it even makes sense to make the Numenoreans darker-skinned since they've lived on the equator for thousands of years.
My favourite is the black Anne Boleyn. Sidenote, what is all of this subtly saying? Black characters are only good when they're repurposed from white characters? Why aren't they making movies or shows based on African folklore? It's almost like they're saying "Your stuff isn't good enough; here, have our leftovers".
Come on, you know the tune!Woke woke woke woke,
Woke woke woke woke,
Woke woke woke woke woke woke woke woke
Yes, that seems to be the case. I've spent some time wondering why Tolkien always described the Dunlendings as dark on the one hand and Celtic on the other, which to me is a contradiction. But it seems to be the case with the Celtic British that there are also some darker skin types (which are still white in modern sense!). I think the Dunlendings and their relatives don't come off very well in Tolkien's books, unfortunately, but that's another topic. Anyway, he seems to have thought more of the Anglo-Saxons with the Rohirrim and more of the (or certain) Celts with the Dunlendings, though of course he would have ruled out any allegory. But that will probably be more of a topic for the upcoming anime adaptation.Heck, even speaking of the British Islands, the Welsh have some who get dark:
BUT, this idea of an inexplicably, extremely diverse population is a modern convention since rapid travel and world-wide movement is easier. Even nowadays, the United States and Brazil are the countries with the highest racial diversity across their ENTIRE country and not just their major metropolitan areas/ports.
For me this black elves and dwarfes and all this makes also the immersion into the serie totally impossible.In my opinion, that would still be within the scope of a possible interpretation, although I'd estimate Tolkien's idea differently (rather more Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Germanic/Norse).
By the way, even if it were as hot in Numenor as in Central Africa or Central America (which is definitely not):
All the descendants of the European immigrants who colonized these areas since the end of the Middle Ages still don't look like Africans, but like (southern) Europeans. Except when they had mixed with the natives or their then slaves brought from Africa. Such mixtures, however, would fit quite well - according to Tolkien's descriptions - most likely to Umbar and the further, only vaguely described Numenorian colonies there nearby and further south.
But I have already given up hope that this will be realized even rudimentarily realistically in the series.
They're doing it wrong the other way, too: The black elf's love interest - who is said to come from the south, from a village named "Tirharad" - is white (though the acress is of Persion descent). It can be assumed that this place is south of Gondor. A darker skin color would actually have been appropriate for her. And when I look at the corresponding picture from the Vanity Fair article, the flora there doesn't look like Harad either, but rather typically for New Zealand / Peter-Jackson-Hobbiton and therefore somehow mild and European-like tempered.
For me, this all completely destroys the immersion, and I can say that because I've experienced it on recent fantasy series like The Witcher and Amazon's Wheel of Time.
Anyhow, I think there is no point in delving further into this borderline topic for now, even though it unfortunately had to be brought up due to Amazon's propaganda, fan insults and wokeness policy. (And I'm afraid this will, unfortunately, be cyclical.)
So we're definitely going to get a show where diversity, girl power (I'm sure Xena-Galadriel is just the beginning) and political innuendos are constantly rubbed in our faces. Some will be able to live with it, some will not. But for those who manage to look past that, the question will arise as to whether the plot, the dialogues, the costumes, cgi-effects, the setting, characters, and the atmosphere as a whole will be gripping and deep and in the spirit of Tolkien. In this respect, too, the first trailer was not exciting at all. But in this regard, at least there is still hope that things will get better.
Not sure how you mean that. But a very large part of the overall criticism also refers to things that one would not classify as "woke":Amazon can do what they like to the story or the legacy, but if they try miscasting any racial types . . .
And, a really worst thing:Not sure how you mean that. But a very large part of the overall criticism also refers to things that one would not classify as "woke":
- that the dwarf woman has no beard
- that Galadriel - with just a dagger and some bad CGI effects - easily jumps around an icy abyss in chain armor
- that Gandalfs fall from the sky as meteorites
- that Hobbits play such an important role in the Second Age that airtime is cut off, which could have been used for more important subjects
- that Galadriel travels to Numenor and beats up soldiers there
- that men with huge elk antlers walk around pointlessly
- that everything seems to be about stupid action
- that Galadriel and especially Elrond look far too young
- that Elrond is characterized as a young, ambitious political architect
- that lots of cliche characters were invented instead of focussing on Tolkien's works
- etc.
But most important:
- They don't have the rights for the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales - so it will be just some fan-fiction, nobody ever wanted to see.
Well, there are some isolated and special cases where there were love connections between elves and humans, sometimes mutually, sometimes just one-sided.And this love story of the black elv with a young single mom
Yes, I know the image you're probably referring to, but I think it's different than you think.
I dont want to see a fantasy serie, in which Love Storys are one of the biggest part of the story.Well, there are some isolated and special cases where there were love connections between elves and humans, sometimes mutually, sometimes just one-sided.
Since Amazon doesn't have the rights to the Silmarillion and they still didn't want to miss out on such a special romance, they simply invented something.
And since it's obviously an important concern of Amazon to mix current left-wing political agendas into everything, of course the Elf has to look like a short-haired black person of the 21st century who is currently cosplaying. And the woman must therefore be a single mother with a different skin color. Anything else would not be contemporary.
Of course, all of this is borderline, if not despicable, for a true Tolkien fan. In my opinion, "gatekeeping" is definitely necessary here.
This trailer was so absurd, disgusting and ridiculous, that i thinkt, it is even possible, that the producers take Elrond and Galadriel as a love couple. I mean, Peter Jackson was a big Lord of the Ring fan, that is the reason why he make such a good work.Yes, I know the image you're probably referring to, but I think it's different than you think.
I'm very confident that the two will not have a romantic relationship. Amazon must not contradict the canon too clearly, after all, that was contractually agreed with the Tolkien Estate.
However, they will use every gray area and newly invented characters to get up to mischief.
However, there is still no evidence of this. I also don't think that 50% of the screen time will go to love stories. I'm more concerned that it will mostly be pretty trivial action scenes. Or just irrelevant, stupid scenes like in Wheel of Time. But that remains to be seen. One shouldn't interpret too many negative speculative things into the trailer, the confirmed ones are already enough.a homosexual wizard
I guess, this serie will be as horrible as game of thrones: one part for love storys and sex, the other part for brutal battles wih warrior woman.However, there is still no evidence of this. I also don't think that 50% of the screen time will go to love stories. I'm more concerned that it will mostly be pretty trivial action scenes. Or just irrelevant, stupid scenes like in Wheel of Time. But that remains to be seen. One shouldn't interpret too many negative speculative things into the trailer, the confirmed ones are already enough.
I really liked Game of Thrones, at least the seasons that were still based on the books. It was really an excellent adaptation at first because it was so close to the books. And I liked the books. It's just something different than Tolkien, but still good. But of course it would be pointless to impose the flair of Game of Thrones on Middle-earth. That should be kept separate.I guess, this serie will be as horrible as game of throne
I dont like Game of throne, for me it has to much sex and violence, i prefer fantasy in the Tolkien wayI really liked Game of Thrones, at least the seasons that were still based on the books. It was really an excellent adaptation at first because it was so close to the books. And I liked the books. It's just something different than Tolkien, but still good. But of course it would be pointless to impose the flair of Game of Thrones on Middle-earth. That should be kept separate.
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