The Never Asked Question

[Lhunithiliel]

The Balrogs and their wings!!!!

Master Barley, aren't you 'afraid' to set ajar the lid of this 'Pandora's box' ?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

The Balrogs and their wings!!!!

Master Barley, aren't you 'afraid' to set ajar the lid of this 'Pandora's box' ?

No, it's all just speculation anyway. Tolkien said something in the introduction to LOTR that covers any seeming discrepancies:

"The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short."

That passage, at least to me, puts the capper on any real possibility of endless speculative (and ultimately fruitless) spinning-out of theories — which is really a great relief to my mind!

Barley

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Well... I personally don's share the opinion about Balrogs having wings.

On the other hand, I think that these creatures, like many others from the wonderous world of Tolkien, had "suffered" sort of a metamorphosis - from creatures of a more 'pagan' character - to reach to the Balrog of Moria who (...which ...??? ) shows more similarities with the Satan from the Christian 'mythology'. Hence, perhaps his (its) shadowy wings, which one can never really understand whether those were a shadow resembling wings, or a really existing pair of wings.

Besides, I am thinking ... if the Balrogs had wings, why hadn't they flown away after Angbad was ruined, but went deep underground? A flying creature, IMO, would not chose the bosom of the earth to the firmament of the skies.
And also after the Warof Wrath:

The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth...

 

[Gothmog]

In my opinion I think that Tolkien deliberately left the descripton of the the Balrog vauge. It allows each to see the creature as that which would be most terrible to them. (even though the Balrog has no wings )

 

[Lhunithiliel]

I would much appreciate a little help here.

In what sources can one find information on the issue "Tolkien - translator of what is known as Silmarillion" ?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

...let's presume that some of us have a question "burning" the mind...

Exactly at what point and for what purpose did Ilúvatar create hobbits?

Barley

 

[Earendilyon]

Hobbit's are not specifically created by Ilúvatar. They were a branch of the human race according to JRRT in Letter 131 (late 1951):

Their origin is unknown (even to themselves)* for they escaped the notice of the great, or the civilised peoples with records, and kept none themselves, save vague oral traditions, until they had migrated from the borders of Mirkwood, fleeing from the Shadow, and wandered westward, coming into contact with the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arnor.

[Somewhat further on, refering to the War of the Ring:] this last great Tale, coming down from myth and legend to the earth, is seen mainly though the eyes of Hobbits: it thus becomes in fact anthropocentric. [My italics, Ear]

* The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man – though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

 

[Earendilyon]

Some pages back, Lhun asked something about the seasons of Aman versus those of Tol Eressëa and Middle-earth. I think she already gave the answer to it herself in one of her quotes:

Though all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, and in Valinor there was no winter of death...

The Valar were the rulers of the weather and the seasons, so they also could control it in Aman. They seem to have liked the summer season best and let it always be summer in Aman. So, although Aman was still withn the confines of Arda, its seasons were ruled/generated locally and not subject to the normal chance as in the rest of Arda.

A page earlier she asked:

So, how come that to Elrond it was permitted to "change camps" and to Elros - not?

I think the answer is, as before, already in the quote she gave herself:

The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which cometh to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Halfelven Iluvatar gave them judgement. And this they judged: choice should be given to the brethren. And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added, that choice was never annulled, and while the world lasted he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die.

Normally, the Valar may not withdraw the Gift of Men from men, but this time they were given judgement herein. They gave Elros and Elrond the choice to choose between Man and Elf. Elros chose for Man, and hence the Gift of Men. Elrond chose for Elf. But I think that the Valar wouldn't want to withhold from him the Gift of Men, so they let this choice for ever open to him (the "choice was never annulled"), even "while the world lasted"! This shows, IMO, how high the Valar valued the Gift of Death to Men. This Gift was noth death a people normally regard it, but a gift: by dieing men left Arda to live with Ilúvatar.

The question (as I see it) is not really why Elros didn't get the chance to get back at his choice. The most surprising thing here is, that the Valar valued the Gift to Men so much, that they gave Elrond the chance (the grace) to eventually choose for that Gift! It feels a bit like they would want to give it to all Firstborn, but that was not possible of course, so they wouldn't want to withhold it from someone who had the possibility to choose between the two races. Remember, that of the Gift of Men it is said that even the Valar would get tired of life and would envie Mankind for their Gift!

 

[Maerbenn]

Elrond chose for Elf. But I think that the Valar wouldn't want to withhold from him the Gift of Men, so they let this choice for ever open to him (the "choice was never annulled"), even "while the world lasted"!

Tolkien probably had something like that in mind, but years later, the passage was removed when composing 'The Downfall of Númenor' (the 'Akallabêth'). It also contradicts Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings:

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.

and Letters no. 154 (25 September 1954):

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.

 

[Earendilyon]

I recalled it was thus indeed, but the quote of Lhun said something different, so I tried to explain that. I like Tolkien's former idea on the matter too: that the Gift of Men was so much valued by the Valar that they didn't want to withhold it to Elrond, even when he got the change to choose.
Once more an example of JRRT changing his mind on some matter ...

 

[Eledhwen]

they let this choice for ever open to him (the "choice was never annulled"), even "while the world lasted"!

Tolkien probably had something like that in mind, but years later, the passage was removed when composing 'The Downfall of Númenor' (the 'Akallabêth'). It also contradicts Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings:

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.

and Letters no. 154 (25 September 1954):

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.

Both quotes can be accommodated in that the choice remained even while the world lasted for each of the halfelven and their offspring, but was irrevocable for each, once made.

 

[Earendilyon]

Eled, that could be thus accomodated but for the info given in the quote from HoMe IX:

And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added, that choice was never annulled, and while the world lasted he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die.

The stressed parts clearly tell Elrond got (in that earlier version of the story) the chance to 'repent' of his choice and choose for Mankind!

 

[Earendilyon]

Some pages back, Lhun asked several questions. One was:

What to think of the Road and the Door - Were they made BEFORE the breaking of the oath ? - then For what purpose? .... or.... Were they made AFTER the breaking of the oath? ...then WHO made them? (for the purpose could be = warning)

These questions are answered in the quote she herself posted from the LotR:

Such was the dark Dunharrow, the work of long-forgotten men. Their name was lost and no song or legend remembered it. For what purpose they had made this place, as a town or secret temple or a tomb of kings, none could say. Here they laboured in the Dark Years, before ever a ship came to the western shores, or Gondor of the Dúnedain was built; and now they had vanished, and only the old Púkel-men were left, still sitting at the turnings of the road.

They were made "in the Dark Years, before ever a ship came to the western shores, or Gondor of the Dúnedain was built", meaning before Isildur came and received their Oath and before they could break it.
For what purpose you ask. The answer is: 'none could say', we only can speculate. Maybe that's what you want? Or do you want an answer from JRRT's works themselves?

A second (set of) question(s) she asked, was:

1) What "business" had the Dead with the Stone, which is obviously one of the Palantiri, brought from Numenor.
2) How, do you think, did Isildur manage to bring the enourmous Palantir to Erech? Looking at the maps and reading about the place... I just can't figure out how he could!
3) Why Erech?

1) I highly doubt the Stone of Erech was a Palantir, seeing that the Stone was "the height of a man", whereas the Palantiri were much smaller. Beside, tha Palantiri were much too valuable to use it for such a purpose. I think the Stone of Erech was made of the same material used for Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Tirith. Of this material the citizens of Minas Tirith seem rather confident, btw:

the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.

Of the Palantiri, Gandalf also says:

[The Men of old] set up Stones at Minas Anor, and at Minas Ithil, and at Orthanc in the ring of Isengard. The chief and master of these was under the Dome of Stars at Osgiliath before its ruin. The three others were far away in the North. In the house of Elrond it is told that they were at Annúminas, and Amon Sûl, and Elendil's Stone was on the Tower Hills that look towards Mithlond in the Gulf of Lune where the grey ships lie.

The answer to your question is, I think, in the quote you gave: "it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men". A 'trysting-place' is a plce where a tryst is made, or, to say in modern English, where an oath was made. The Dead had sworn at that place an Oath and would gather in times of fear at it, hoping that the rightful King would come to make use of them and so give them a chance to fulfill their Oath, after which they would find peace at last.
2) Good question! Maybe on some kind of sled or something like that? How did the Egyptians built the pyramids?
3) Erech was close by the Mountains where the Oathbreakers lived, but was not yet in their terretory, but neither in mainland Gondor. So it was located in a bit of a frontier area between the two Kingdoms: a perfect place for such a symbol of a pact between two countries (like the hill where Eorl and Cirion made a pact between Gondor and Rohan).

A third question:

I have noticed that on several occasions, the Professor expressed quantities using the "German way" of saying the numbers and not the English one.
For example:
five and fifty hundreds = German: "funf und funfzig" (don't laugh at my Deutch! ) still it is NOT the English " fifty five hundred"
a hundred leagues and two ...
There are several other examples, but I just can't find them now.
Your comments?

I think it's a Germanic way of forming numbers. Tolkien probably used that Germanic manner to give the tale a more archaic form. I wouldn't be suprised if he used it predominantly in the Rohan and Gondor episodes of the LotR.

The last question:

From ROTK:

Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’

Could someone, please, say what war exactly did Legolas mean?
As far as I remember, Lothlorien was not at war at that point. Yes, there were fell creatures that the Elven warriors chased out of the wood, but a WAR????

This question was already partially answered here by pointing to the assaults on Lothlorien. We've also to remember, though, that also the Lonely Mountain, Dale and Esgaroth were attacked during the War of the Ring. IIRC, there's more info on this in one of the Appendices

 

[Eledhwen]

A third question:

I think it's a Germanic way of forming numbers. Tolkien probably used that Germanic manner to give the tale a more archaic form. I wouldn't be suprised if he used it predominantly in the Rohan and Gondor episodes of the LotR.

This 'Germanic' form was once not uncommon in England (as in the rhyme 'Sing a Song of Sixpence, a pocket full of rye; Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie....') The fact that it has now fallen into disuse makes it very useful for conveying the notion of an older form of language.

 

[Chin of Sauron]

Hello,

I had a question about one of the earlier posts in this thread regarding the war being fought in the north (Erebor, Dale, Mirkwood, and Lorien) at about the same time that Aragorn and the others were in Rohan and Gondor. I've read the LotR appendices, but are there any other sources of information about what happened in these battles?

CoS

 

[Eledhwen]

Welcome to the forum, Chin of Sauron (Chin???)

The info you need can be found in The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth. I found that particular chapter a most satisfactory read because it also explains how and why Gandalf and the Dwarves chose to knock on Bilbo's door in The Hobbit.

 

[Chin of Sauron]

Thanks for the reply! I was hoping there might be additional detail about what kind of battles were fought, but I realise that information might simply not exist. I'm a bit of a junkie when it comes to wars in Middle Earth.

CoS (Because MoS was taken)

 

[Eledhwen]

Thanks for the reply! I was hoping there might be additional detail about what kind of battles were fought, but I realise that information might simply not exist.

CoS (Because MoS was taken)

If you want battle detail, you could do worse than get Book of Lost Tales II out of the library, the only place which describes in detail the fall of Gondolin.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Other than in the Letters, does Tolkien provide any further information on Lalia Took and the Clayhangers?

 

[Maerbenn]

As far as I am aware; no.