The Spiders

[FINGOLFIN]

It is obvious that Shelob is one of the spawn of Ungoliant. Is there any mention of what happened to the remaining off-spring. I vaguely remember a passage that mentions the fate of the rest of her offspring, but my memory fails me at this moment? What can you tell me?

 

[Rúmil]

fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

Sil chap 10.

Gorgoroth, that is in Mordor; apparently they lingered and dwindled till the third age when only Shelob was left:

last of the children of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world

Lotr, Shelob's lair, chap9 book4

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Excellent Answer

If Shelob managed the passage to the East, then other offspring must have done the same. That they "lingered and dwindled" seems a wholely unsatisfactory answer to me. And what of the origins and descendants of Ungoliants mates that she consumed? Are the Mirkwood spiders woven into this particular web? Are they the descendants of Ungoliants unfortunate mates? I'm sure she did not consume the entire species. What mention of this?

 

[Rúmil]

Yes, the Mirkwood spiders are not related, as some subsisted at the time of the War of the Ring, and as previously quoted Shelob was the last of the children of Ungoliant; I would say Melkor breeded them in The Day Before Days.

As for the origin of the descendents of Ungoliant, well... Ungoliant. I don't think I understand what you mean there.

The lingering is the most satisfactory explanation to account for the lack of representants of the species at the time of the War of the Ring.

Shelob was born born in Gorgoroth, dhe didn't travel to Mordor.

She devoured her mates (who were bred by Melkor in the day of Utumno, cf supra), not her offspring.

Hope this aswers all.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Origins

Sorry if I didn't make my point clear.

I was asking what happened to the descendants of the spiders Ungoliant mated with? She ate her mates..point made, but she surely did not mate with every member of the species. What of the females in that species? Thus the comment about "her not eating the entire species". Perhaps they ARE the origin of the Mirkwood spiders?

Just a thought.

 

[Rúmil]

Convenient aswer many Tolkien specialists find handy:
They vanished out of the world long ago.
I believe there is absolutely no evidence bar in the snatches of chapter 10 of Silm which I have quoted of the later fate of that monstrous spider brood. I have not checked the other unpublished Silms but if my memory does not fail me, there is no more about that matter in them.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Rúmil

Shelob was born born in Gorgoroth, dhe didn't travel to Mordor.

I don't think that's quite right Rumil. In "The Atlas of Middle Earth" page 40-41 it is clearly shown that Shelob fled from the drowning of Beleriand to Mordor.

Also this from "Shelob's lair":

How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells...

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Summation

Lets see if we can sum this up.

1. We know of two spiders by name:

Ungoliant - Origin unknown, fate unknown, spawner of Shelob

Shelob- Born of Ungoliant, last of her kind, no descendants

2. We know of two species of spiders:

The mates of Ungoliant in Angband, all devoured by Ungoliant before her departure

The Mirkwood species - origins unclear, presumably a continuing species

Is that it?

 

[Rúmil]

My mistake - I confused Ered Gorgoroth with the Plateau of Gorgoroth in Mordor. Well, that doesn't change much - the Spidrrs dwindled / were caught in the ruin of Beleriand. Yes, that sums up our knowledge, Fingolfin.

 

[emopansy]

its also states in shelobs lair that she had had mates before wich she killed but her childern still populated the forest. it also said they were dwindeled and pitful in her power.

 

[Rúmil]

that's not in Shelob's lair, it's in the passage of the Sil I quoted above

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Reread

I think I'm going to reread "Shelobs Lair" right now!