Right, but once they were doomed the
Vanyar did not help them.
I can agree with this pretty cryptic statement.
I think those could be the reasons too, but I find it hard to swallow... which is why I opened this thread. I am inclined to believe the Vanyar erred in not coming to the aid of the
Noldor. But as I said in my last post, they are the holy
elves. They did trust the
Valar, and were different in nature than the Noldor, they are such that I can't fully understand them.
Perhaps you are viewing things from a more Noldorion point of view?
I mean If I were a Noldor, and even If my reasons for leaving weren't entirely justified, and I knew that still I would feel a tiny bit of remorse that my friends didn't help me.
I try to put myself in their position (with my ways of thinking of course, not theirs since I can not understand it) and I just imagine I would not have trusted to the Valar as much as they did. Because of this, I have little respect for that trust.
That are your thoughts. They can't be justified, as you yourself admit.
They punish all the exiles... many of which only went along to aid those who they knew were going into folly.
The exiles all, willingly accepted their doom, and thus all were equally responsible, with the possible exception of
Fëanor and kin.
It is admirable that some of the Noldor went wittingly in great danger for the sake of those others who would not be restrained.
It is admirable in the foolish sense. I can see what you are getting at though. You are asking the Vanyar to join the rebels due to basically the same reasons which made some of the least willing Noldor accompany their kinsmen to
Middle-Earth.
The less willing Noldo had more reason to follow the rebels. Firstly, Fëanor and
Fingolfin their
Kings were going in Exile and they were compelled to follow their lead if they wanted to remain obediant. Secondly the sense of Clan and family is very strong among the Elves, and Noldor would have felt more compelled to join their kinsmen.
Why didn't the Valar just aid the Noldor anyhow, regaining the trust of those few who didn't trust them, and forgive those who would repent?
To the Valar was committed overlordship of
Arda, and the Elves knew that, which made Elves come under their jurisdiction and the Elves needed to obey their commands. But the Elves choose to ignore them and disobeyed the Valar. And even then you expect the Valar to help those who disobeyed them and broke friendship with them. Because
Manwë forced [by power] none to turn back. In the doom of Noldor Valar had no part. The Valar basically left the rebel's alone, because it was Fëanor who so proudly had claimed that Elves would be better off without the help of Valar. And you still expect them to help Fëanor and those who followed him? The Valar were just in their treatment of the exiles, not perhaps entirely correct, but just.
Their are a few other factors too, like Valar helping the rebels would mean that the Valar have overlooked the terrible crime, the first kinslaying.
Maybe all the Vanyar could have gone to Middle-earth and things would have turned out just as bad, and maybe even the Vanyar trusted this would be the case, but why not try anyhow?
Because trying would yeild nothing except destruction of the noble and fair Vanyar.
Why not do the sort of thing that
Finrod did? How can you bear to sit there while your friends are at war with
Morgoth?
That's taking friendship to extreme and on the fringe of insanity. You won't except a Vanyar to jump in something which is not only unlawful but cursed too.
The
Shibboleth of Fëanor tells us about the reasons of Finrod.
Finrod was like his father in his fair face and golden hair, and also in noble and generous heart, though he had the high courage of the
Ñoldor and in his youth their eagerness and unrest
; and he had also from his Telerin mother a love of the sea and dreams of far lands that he had never seen.
She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of
Finwë save
Finarfin; and like her brother
Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage
Thus dominon of lands was also a reason behind Finrod's reason of departure.
I hardly think the example of Finrod jumping in with all these haughty princes is a lesson in Wisdom.
But, I have a hard time believing that the Vanyar of
Aman arriving in Middle-earth would not have been enough to whoop Morgoth.
And I have a hard time believeing that it would have done any good. Becuase you see, if the battle were to be won by number and in fight, then the Noldor with the aid of
Sindar and allies would have defeated Morgoth, [seeing that only the treachery of men kept them from winning Nirnaeth]Morgoth would never be overcome, that is gates of Thongrodium broken and Morgoth captured. Victory would still have eluded them, which wasn't possible without the intervention of
Ainur.
Imagine if they came marching over Hilthlum as
Fingon's host was heading off to Nirnaeth.
A fanfic is in order-right?
I would have loved it but guess
Tolkien is not
the one to care much about dramatic twists.
And remember
Ulmo's words to
Tuor... the
walls of doom can be breached.
To what extent?
On the other hand, it might go along with being most holy to trust blindly. I could maybe understand trusting in
Eru, but why the Valar.
Because with all their fault, Valar are more wise and powerful then me or you.
Oh and as for the Passage from
Myths Transformed ModAddi showed, the reasons showed their indeed present Valar as possessing no love for either Eldar or
Atani. That's characteristic of Valar is more Eru like if you ask me, coldness personified.
Posted by Gil-GaladThe Vanyar prefered the easy life,they chose to forget everything,to forget what had happened in
Valinor.Such decison can be made only by selfish and egoistic persons,who are afraid of losing what they have.
I am afraid Gil-galad, but this has to be one of the most boisterous and unwarranted statements I have read in a while.
Guess your enthusiasm got the better of you. Forget what? What exactly had happened in Valinor? The slaying of the two
trees, but Vanyar lamented for their loss more then Noldor. So you think because Vanyar were wise, had care for their families and had the sense of choosing between right and wrong and trying to avoid the influence of Arda marred, makes them selfish and egoistic persons who are afraid of losing what they have? I find this pretty strange.
Posted by NomThe Noldor knew this.
Did the Vanyar?
Why wouldn't they know? The Vanyar had been graced with a mind by Eru and I am sure they had enough mental capabilites to assertain certain faults of Valar.
Posted by Nom
If so, why did they trust the Valar as much as they did?
They did this because they also knew that Valar were being made, in relative powers of incarnate body and more, greater then the Children of Eru and thus were more wise then them. If you look objectively, the Valar had done a whole lot for the Eldar. They had made war upon Morgoth just to ensure that the Eldar Children could be saved from the shadow. That in itself was enough for the Vanyar to merit great trust of Valar.
Posted by NomWhat exactly prevent any of them from saying: 'You know what? Forget this! My friends are dying in Middle-earth and the Valar who failed to stop Morgoth earlier as should have been done, are letting them, and regardless of whether Morgoth will be stopped before he takes over Arda, I am going to aid my friends.'
This matter is being discussed in a debate so I'll refrain from making any comments right now.
Posted by NomThe problem I have with the Valar leaving Morgoth in Middle-earth to cause ruin during the
first age is: What were their plans before the Noldor rebelled? After the darkening of Valinor the Valar did chase Morgoth but he was able to lose them. What were they going to do when they found him? Ask him politely if he would cease being a nihilistic root of all
evil and come over to the good side?
What they did afterwards, execute his incarnate self and banish him to the void.
Posted by Nom
May it really now? Was that the reasoning of the Valar? Let him wear himself out on the people of Middle-earth, and then swoop in and wipe him out?
Note:Nóm is refering to the passage ModAddi Posted.
I don't agree with this reasoning and I am not rooting for it.
Posted by Nóm
Or were the Vanyar a bunch of authority-worthshipping, followers who rather let the Valar do all their thinking for them?
Nothing of that sort! Were you in a bad mode when you wrote this?
Posted by NómOr was there just something so holy about the Vanyar that is beyond my understanding. Is it a holy thing to not question the Valar?
It is 'holy' not to Question the Valar when it is evident that Valar's stand on something is just and warranted.
