Third Age 👁️Sauron or Second Age Sauron?

[YayGollum]

Ack! Yes, I get that. It makes all kinds of sense. You must be agreeing with me and saying that the group of big and scary types is Sauron from the second age and the other group is Sauron from the third age. If not, it doesn't make sense. We're comparing one person to himself at a different time. If you want to talk about the odds he's up against, try thinking of these two Saurons in a fight.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Well

'If you want to talk about the odds he's up against, try thinking of these two Saurons in a fight. '

Its slowly going in.

But what if Ali had never fought any fighter of note? Would that have diminished his well deserved reputation?

 

[YayGollum]

When you said this ---> "You have to look at who he was fighting against at the time to judge which was the stronger." I was thinking that you meant it. Now you're changing it to compare Sauron to himself like you should have been the whole time. Got it. I love getting insulted when people suddenly change what they're talking about. Anyways, if you are now saying that my idea of your view on the two groups is right, then you must agree that the Sauron from the second age is the best. Yay!

What's all of this craziness about fame have to do with anything? We're suddenly talking about the power of intimidation? Okay. Sure, it makes all kinds of sense that he'd be more famous in the third age. But still. The other creepy powers he had in the second age are cooler.

 

[FrankSinatra]

How tedious

"You have to look at who he was fighting against at the time to judge which was the stronger."

I did meant it!

I meant - which i thought was fairly clear - that one should judge which Sauron age was stronger, based upon his opponents.

But you didnt get the 'opponents' explanation either.

Why do i feel as though im wasting my time here?

Can anyone else see what i mean? Its not an exactly difficult concept.

 

[YayGollum]

When you said all of this craziness --->

'If you want to talk about the odds he's up against, try thinking of these two Saurons in a fight. '

Its slowly going in.

I was assuming that you were agreeing with what I had to say about the two groups you were talking about being Saurun versus himself at a different time. Now it sounds like you're saying that one group was Sauron in one age versus the opponents he had then. Still doesn't look like you're comparing him to himself. sorry that I thought you were agreeing with me before. If you feel like I'm really so achingly dense, why don't you explain yourself as if I'm a little kid? I don't get where you're comparing him to himself now that you're saying you didn't agree with me. Comparing him to opponents from different ages has nothing to do with comparing him to himself.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Are you being deliberately ignorant?

The point is not so complex. and i have not the patience to explain it again, you are not a child.

Read back and let me know when you have found enlightenment.

 

[YayGollum]

No, I happen to be achingly proud of my genuine ignorance. sorry about that. Anyways, got it. You don't have the patience to try proving your point. Looks like I win. Sure, I've read all of the posts you wrote for this thread. Why not? Maybe my stubbornity is getting in the way of seeing how you're keeping on topic.

 

[Ingwë]

To comprare the Third age Sauron and the Second age Sauron we must comprare his deed in the Second and in the Thind age

Sauron in the Second age:

• He came to Eregion to 'help' the Elven smiths
• He 'helped' the Elves to make the Rings of Power because he wanted to control the Middle earth using the Rings
• He forged secretly the One Ring to enslave the holders of the other Rings of Power
• He caused the Fall of Númenor
• He killed Celebrimbor and overruned Eriador
• He took the Rings of Dwarves and the Rings of Men
• He was overthrown by the Last Alliance

Sauron in the Third age

• He still lived in the Middle earth but he has no body
• He made problems in Mirkwood
• He caused the War of the Ring
• His servants made problems all over the Middle earth
• He was finally overthrown

Well, I think Sauron in the Second age was more powerful, then he had the One Ring but in the Third age the Ring was lost and he has never take it again.

 

[Thorondor_]

As it was already mentioned in this forum, one's deeds are not a measure of one's own power. The events set in motion and their results are very much independent of one's power.

And you are wrong to say Sauron had no body in the Third Age:
- Smeagol actually talks about him having one: (He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough)
- Tolkien himself says in a letter about LotR: 'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.'

 

[Ingwë]

That's interesting but why not? Why not to measure one's deeds of one's own power? He has a power ---> many deeds. And we talk about Sauron - if he has enough power he will enslave the free peoples of the Middle earth.
And about the body... maybe you're correct

 

[Thorondor_]

We are talking about Sauron's own power.

It wasn't Frodo's or Gollum's own power at work when they succeeded in destroying the one ring. No, it was God's grace - Gandalf believes in its action when he says:
Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought
Also Elrond proves it when he says:
Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are met here, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world."

It is unreasonable to believe that the hobbits destroyed the ring out of their own reservoir of power. Through this parallel I intend to prove that the result of one's actions are not a measure of one's power, but the result of the interaction with other's power too and, of course, with the power of the chance (or to be more correct - the grace and the will of Eru, towards which everything converges).

 

[ingolmo]

My vote goes to the second-age Sauron, for obvious reasons posted before.

 

[Telëlambe]

Well, i dont think that Eru gave the frodo, bilbo, sam or gollum and perticular advantages over other people regarding the ring. But i do think that they had a slight advantage in resistance (as hobbits or as these perticular hobbits) and so that is why they were 'ment to have it' and it was probably sung into the songs at the very beginning that this would happen.

Souron was more powerfull in the second age in my opinion. being given the power to dominate all life and all.

 

[Thorondor_]

Well, i dont think that Eru gave the frodo, bilbo, sam or gollum and perticular advantages over other people regarding the ring. But i do think that they had a slight advantage in resistance (as hobbits or as these perticular hobbits) and so that is why they were 'ment to have it' and it was probably sung into the songs at the very beginning that this would happen.

I don't think it's a matter of resistance. My guess is that most (any?) dwarves have better resistance that any hobbit - what saved Bilbo and Sam, at least, was their goodness not their resistance. Both of these two (I am reffering only to them, because Frodo is too much of a victim of the ring) felt the awesome power of the ring, but it was their commitment to "the good side" (not a natural resistance, with which the dwarves are more endowed) that saved them.

 

[Telëlambe]

Dwarves have a resistance to hardship and oppression, but aule did'nt design them with the thought of resisting corruption from within. But having never known a Dwarf to posses the one ring we will never know. I think hobbits were put there for a purpose, to save the world, and were given the correct equipment for it, because if they didn't find a way, no one would.
But any way, we are getting off the subject. Sauron was far more powerfull in the second age than the 1st, and the alliance that broke him was big enough to rival the joining of armies that made war on Morgoth in the Battle of Un-numbered tears.

 

[Alatar]

Second age,m before the numenorians showed up, he was ruling ME!