Third Age 👁️Sauron or Second Age Sauron?

[Anamatar IV]

Sauron

Which sauron did you think was more powerful? I think the 3rd age sauron because even without the ring he almost conquered the world.

 

[Beorn]

I've closed this thread on the request of Grond, and by the consent of Anamatar IIII due to the fact that 'it may influence the debate between the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil and the Guild of Periaur'

I will (or someone else who remembers) reopen it on Monday.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Thread reopened. Mike, you obviously let 'A few Mondays' slip by.

Let's discuss.

 

[BlackCaptain]

I have to totaly agree with you Anamatar. He came closer to winning over ME and he didn't even have the Ring in the Third Age

 

[Ithrynluin]

But keep in mind that the forces of Elves and Men were much stronger in the Second Age. The Noldor had a High King and Gondor and Arnor were still part of one large, united kingdom. There was no such alliance of Elves and Men to be seen afterwards - they became estranged for the most part.

Second Age Sauron also achieved the drowning of Anadune, which is no small feat. He eliminated one of his greatest foes - the Numenoreans. How would Sauron have fared in the 3rd Age if the vast fleets of Numenor had still been around then?

My vote goes to Second Age Sauron.

 

[YayGollum]

Makes all kinds of sense. You can't judge how powerful somebody is just because of how strong the other people are. Besides, didn't the guy have more powers back then? In the second age, I mean.

 

[Maerbenn]

From a footnote to letter #183:

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth’s representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

 

[Lantarion]

My answer is a little illegitamate, but here goes: I think Sauron in the Third Age, though obviously radically weaker than in any other Age, had the possibility or being more powerful than before; all that kept him from setting himself up as possibly the mightiest Maia ever was his lack of a small band of gold.
So as he is portrayed in the LotR, he was far weaker than in the 2nd Age; but with the Ring he would have been unstoppable by any force except the Powers.

And ithryn, do you think that Sauron had the Drowning of Númenórë in mind when he urged Ar-Pharazôn to attack Aman? I have always thought that he only intended to send the fleets to their deaths by the hands of the Valar, and that Ilúvatar's intervention came as a complete surprise (backed up by the fact that he lost his physical form in the Downfall! ).

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lantarion
And ithryn, do you think that Sauron had the Drowning of Númenórë in mind when he urged Ar-Pharazôn to attack Aman? I have always thought that he only intended to send the fleets to their deaths by the hands of the Valar, and that Ilúvatar's intervention came as a complete surprise.

I don't think he had that in mind. But his goal would have been accomplished with all those Númenoreans dead. If Eru hadn't caused the drowning, Sauron could have been the ruler of Numenor!

And what about First Age Sauron? He wasn't exactly a weakling back then either.

 

[Inderjit S]

Doesnt this quote imply that Sauron was at the zenith of his power in the S.A?

Sauron was 'greater' effectively in the Second Age then Morgoth at the end of the first....

M.T; HoME 10

 

[Beleg]

And what about First Age Sauron? He wasn't exactly a weakling back then either.

Ah, but at that time he wasn't the master. If he did any thing, most likely the credit would go to Morgoth. Beside, during the first age Beleriand was infested with hero's and warlike figures of great stature and I don't think Sauron could have withstood all of them.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Yes

I agree with some sentiments here.

To judge a ruler in any age, you have to look at the kind of oppostion he was facing.

The waning Gondor, and almost 'Rural' men of Rohan were nowhere near a match for the hosts in the days of the last alliance.

With that, you can also see how much more powerful Morgoth was (is).

 

[YayGollum]

Ack! What does some guy's opposition have to do with his power? I was thinking that power only had to do with whatever abilities the guy has all by himself, but maybe the number of minions he has helps out, too. Combining the abilities has had all by himself and his minions in the second age, I gots to stick with the second age Sauron. Crazy people.

 

[FoolOfATook]

Amazingly enough, I'm with YayGollum! here. If we were judging his achievements, then we would have to judge his enemies, but since we're just judging how powerful he was...

 

[Ithrynluin]

And in order to have a record of great achievements, you have to be very very powerful...

 

[FrankSinatra]

Yes

Well, if you lived in a small town, and you were the mayor of a council were everyone liked you, you would be the most powerful would you not?

Tony Blair is far more powerful than many previous governments here in the UK, simply because there is not a decent opposing party.

Yet if there is a decent opposition, a ruler of any kind, seems somewhat less powerful.

Or that is how i see it anyway.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, sure, if we were comparing Sauron's power with some else's, the forces of other people would matter. Too bad we're just comparing Sauron to himself, huh?

 

[FrankSinatra]

Well

I dont think we are doing things that simply.

You have to look at who he was fighting against at the time to judge which was the stronger.

For example, would 'Henry VIII' have the political power today he had then? Of course not.

 

[YayGollum]

Ack! That example doesn't have much to do with this topic. Political power is a lot different from physical power. Besides, that political thing works because political type things changed. Physical power type stuffs that we're talking about doesn't.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Ok

I feel as if im talking to children who dont see the point here......the example matters little, the point is what i am trying to make.

Lets try another, if there are a group of men, who are all weak and thin, apart from one of them who is a Mike Tyson like man, this makes the Tyson the strongest, yes? By a far stretch.

Yet if you get a group of Tyson like men, then the Tyson who was with the weak group would not be as strong in comparison to his opposition? Though he himself does not change.

Get it?