Tolkien's latest thoughts about the fate of Aman and Tol Eressea

[Ricardo]

I read in NOME that talking was thinking on the fate of Aman after the change of the world.



He debated to himself if Aman was a physical entity or not (before the change of the world) and concluded that if it was physical it needed to be destroyed, and the Americas would be what Aman was. And Aman would only exist in memory.



Of course, they were only thoughts and I don't think Tolkien planned to get ahead with them, it would have meant changing everything, including the LOTR (e.g., where did Frodo and Bilbo go?, where did they Istari come from?) Also, it would look as a punishment to the elves and the Valar and it would have introduced a dark final to the story that don't believe Tolkien would have wanted.



I think Tolkien did try hard in the late years to make the Legendarium more "real" but he constantly hit a wall.

 

[Amalcarin]

Tolkien did go ahead with the ideas from that text. Here is a relevant passage from the 1964 BBC Interview:

Then became an intellectual... People lived there only in memory, it lived in time, but not present time... And of course Númenor was drowned and the earthly paradise removed, so then... you could then get to sail to America. [In the] Third Age the world became round, you see, it always had been a vast globe, but they... but people could now sail around, discovered it’s round. And that’s my solution of the... I also wanted to give the fall of Atlantis some universal application. Because the point is really, I’ve written this as a story [about] language, as they get to that, you suddenly see the real curvature of the world going down like a bridge... You’re on a line which leads to what was. Of course I don’t [know] what your theory of time is, but what was, what is... or it never had an existence must... still has that same existence, but that’s just so... we won’t go too... you can’t go too deeply in[to] those [things], but they really are sailing back to a... to world of memory.

I do not think this would require changing anything in the narrative concerning the sailing of Bilbo and Frodo into the West. In fact, Tolkien addressed this problem in his late writings (at least two examples readily come to mind):

This solution seems to fit the tales well enough. In fact very well. But of course the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressëa after its “removal” must be dubious and unexplained. Also how “mortals” could go there at all!
The latter not very difficult. Eru committed the Dead of mortals also to Mandos. (That had been done long before: Manwë knew they would be mortal.) They waited then a while in recollection before going to Eru. The sojourn of say Frodo in Eressëa – then on to Mandos? – was only an extended form of this. Frodo would eventually leave the world (desiring to do so). So that the sailing on ship was equivalent to death (NoMe, Elvish Reincarnation, Text 2).

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time – whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ‘immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, no. 325).

The latter quote is from the same 1971 letter where Tolkien emphasizes the mythical nature of the Straight Road:

This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically ‘true’; except that some special physical catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of ‘Mannish’ origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, no. 325).

His reference to LotR here means, I think, that he is perfectly aware of the matter of Bilbo and Frodo and does not think it to be problematic. I would also note here that the idea of the Straight Road as a Númenórean myth in an always round world is not such a late retcon – it already appears in The Drowning of Anadûnê from the 1940s (thus written during the composition of LotR) – which is, speaking in terms you proposed, not “only thoughts”, but an elaborate and finished narrative, which largely became a basis for the later Akallabêth.
Finally, I think that in the 1964 BBC Interview quoted above Tolkien hints at a new idea of what the Straight Road really was. I will quote my thoughts on this from elsewhere:

The Straight Road. In the framework of the Round World cosmology, the notion of the Straight Road must be seen as a myth which arose among the Númenóreans after the Downfall, as described in The Drowning of Anadûnê. The true nature of existence in Aman after its removal is hinted at in the 1964 BBC Interview, where Tolkien seems to allude to J.W. Dunne’s theory of time (for further information concerning Tolkien’s familiarity with that theory and its essential role for Tolkien’s two time-travel stories, The Lost Road and “The Notion Club Papers”, read this article by Verlyn Flieger). It may be assumed that the Eldar sailed back along the line of time (as a dimension) into the past of the world when Aman still existed upon the Earth. It is of course unclear how that would work technically, and perhaps “must be dubious and unexplained” (The Nature of Middle-earth, p. 262), but I once heard someone describing it as travelling through a wormhole.

And no, I do not think at all that Tolkien “constantly hit a wall” with his late cosmology – but we have already discussed this at length, and I do not want to repeat everything I have already said.

 

[Ricardo]

Tolkien did go ahead with the ideas from that text. Here is a relevant passage from the 1964 BBC Interview:

I do not think this would require changing anything in the narrative concerning the sailing of Bilbo and Frodo into the West. In fact, Tolkien addressed this problem in his late writings (at least two examples readily come to mind):


The latter quote is from the same 1971 letter where Tolkien emphasizes the mythical nature of the Straight Road:

His reference to LotR here means, I think, that he is perfectly aware of the matter of Bilbo and Frodo and does not think it to be problematic. I would also note here that the idea of the Straight Road as a Númenórean myth in an always round world is not such a late retcon – it already appears in The Drowning of Anadûnê from the 1940s (thus written during the composition of LotR) – which is, speaking in terms you proposed, not “only thoughts”, but an elaborate and finished narrative, which largely became a basis for the later Akallabêth.
Finally, I think that in the 1964 BBC Interview quoted above Tolkien hints at a new idea of what the Straight Road really was. I will quote my thoughts on this from elsewhere:

And no, I do not think at all that Tolkien “constantly hit a wall” with his late cosmology – but we have already discussed this at length, and I do not want to repeat everything I have already said.

Yes, but none of this letters/texts/interviews mentions Aman as existing only in memory, unless we interpret that as yes, there are people (elves?) who remember Aman as it was and nobody really know what it is like now, but it has to exist, in a different plane, a different dimension perhaps but somewhere.

I am aware that mortals could not dwell in Aman or Eressea for ever, and Frodo and Bilbo departure means death in the sense they will not be seen again in Middle Earth and they will only stay for a healing period in Aman, to then go Mandos and eventually leave Arda, that is clear.

The argument, given by the author of NOME is that Aman must exist, forget Frodo or Bilbo, but where were Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf going? where did the Istari come from? or Glorfindel? Yes, it has to be kept mysterious, unexplained, and maybe the straight road is just a methophore, but there is a mystical way to get to/from Aman, something that men cannot fully comprehend.

 

[Amalcarin]

Yes, but none of this letters/texts/interviews mentions Aman as existing only in memory

I literally quoted a passage from the 1964 BBC Interview that says that.

but where were Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf going?

Into Aman still existing in memory, that is in the past of the world, as I understand Tolkien’s intention.

where did the Istari come from? or Glorfindel?

According to PoMe/381–2, 384) Glorfindel (and also the Blue Wizards) came from the still physical Aman before the Downfall of Númenor. Gandalf, Radagast and (probably) Saruman came in the Third Age from Aman already excluded from the Circles of the World and apparently were self-incarnated in fanar upon entering the physical world (per this text from PoMe and the chapter Mind-Pictures of NoMe). In any case, in this text from PoMe Tolkien explicitly allows for their return even after the removal of Aman.

but there is a mystical way to get to/from Aman, something that men cannot fully comprehend.

Of course there is. No one said otherwise.

 

[Ricardo]

I literally quoted a passage from the 1964 BBC Interview that says that.

True, but I guess he didn't mean in memory as imaginary. It is real, it exists, just not for mortals (with a few exceptions). It only exists in the memory of the people in Middle Earth in the sense it's not longer in this world. He also mentions time, like the time in Aman is different, like a different time line.

Into Aman still existing in memory, that is in the past of the world, as I understand Tolkien’s intention.

we can have an understanding here, it exists in memory, of people like Galadriel or Glorfindel, it's not real in this world, but it's real in a different plane of existence and that's where they go.

According to PoMe/381–2, 384) Glorfindel (and also the Blue Wizards) came from the still physical Aman before the Downfall of Númenor. Gandalf, Radagast and (probably) Saruman came in the Third Age from Aman already excluded from the Circles of the World and apparently were self-incarnated in fanar upon entering the physical world (per this text from PoMe and the chapter Mind-Pictures of NoMe). In any case, in this text from PoMe Tolkien explicitly allows for their return even after the removal of Aman.

yes, it's like a portal. I think the "physical world" is what confuses me, I would say our physical world. For the people in this round world Aman is only a memory, perhaps this world is the same for the people of Aman.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Elthir]

He debated to himself if Aman was a physical entity or not (before the change of the world) and concluded that if it was physical it needed to be destroyed, and the Americas would be what Aman was. And Aman would only exist in memory.

As I read Tolkien's runes here, I'd say he first questioned whether Aman should be removed at the Catastrophe, or destroyed, as opposed to whether or not it was physical before the Catastrophe.

And two, I'd say he concluded here that it should remain, not be destroyed, thus America (and see the first two blue words below).

In other words, because Aman was physical before the Catastrophe, JRRT "therefore" thought it could not be removed without remaining visible as part of Arda, or as a new satellite. The next step in his thinking appears to be: since it could not be removed without remaining visible, it must either remain as a landmass bereft of its former inhabitants, or be destroyed.

Not sure why remove and made normally invisible wasn't an option here, given Eru. . . is Eru. . . but onward.

So as I say, it remained according to this text. Tolkien then added that this Event would nonetheless do great damage and change the configuration of Aman, "partly" sunk into the sea.

Again, that's how I read this part of the text concerned.

For the destruction of the "Land of Aman" along with Númenor, see the following from The Drowning of Anadûnê: "But the Land of Amân [Manwe] and the Land of his gift, standing upon either side of the great chasm in the seas, were also destroyed; for their roots were loosened, and they fell and foundered, and they are no more. And the Avalôim thereafter had no habitation on Earth, and they dwell invisible; nor is there any place more where a memory of a world without evil is preserved."

In Appendix A JRRT employs the word "remove", and again in the 1964 BBC interview, where one could then sail to America. Granted, one could get round this by saying the Undying Lands were removed in some sense — but in any case, I go with the removal of a physical Aman rather than it remaining (if with great damage) to become an ordinary America — and along with that, as a variant account for example, the Mannish DA.

". . . and though they knew that the world was changed, they said: "Avalloni is vanished from the Earth, and the Land of Gift is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found; yet once they were, and therefore they still are in true being and in the whole shape of the world"

JRRT The Drowing of Anadûnê

 

[Ricardo]

As I read Tolkien's runes here, I'd say he first questioned whether Aman should be removed at the Catastrophe, or destroyed, as opposed to whether or not it was physical before the Catastrophe.

And two, I'd say he concluded here that it should remain, not be destroyed, thus America (and see the first two blue words below).

In other words, because Aman was physical before the Catastrophe, JRRT "therefore" thought it could not be removed without remaining visible as part of Arda, or as a new satellite. The next step in his thinking appears to be: since it could not be removed without remaining visible, it must either remain as a landmass bereft of its former inhabitants, or be destroyed.

Not sure why remove and made normally invisible wasn't an option here, given Eru. . . is Eru. . . but onward.

So as I say, it remained according to this text. Tolkien then added that this Event would nonetheless do great damage and change the configuration of Aman, "partly" sunk into the sea.

Again, that's how I read this part of the text concerned.

For the destruction of the "Land of Aman" along with Númenor, see the following from The Drowning of Anadûnê: "But the Land of Amân [Manwe] and the Land of his gift, standing upon either side of the great chasm in the seas, were also destroyed; for their roots were loosened, and they fell and foundered, and they are no more. And the Avalôim thereafter had no habitation on Earth, and they dwell invisible; nor is there any place more where a memory of a world without evil is preserved."

In Appendix A JRRT employs the word "remove", and again in the 1964 BBC interview, where one could then sail to America. Granted, one could get round this by saying the Undying Lands were removed in some sense — but in any case, I go with the removal of a physical Aman rather than it remaining (if with great damage) to become an ordinary America — and along with that, as a variant account for example, the Mannish DA.

". . . and though they knew that the world was changed, they said: "Avalloni is vanished from the Earth, and the Land of Gift is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found; yet once they were, and therefore they still are in true being and in the whole shape of the world"

JRRT The Drowing of Anadûnê

I think America could well be Aman minus the ainur and elves, but they had to go somewhere, and they were obviously present in the third age, and the elves that remained in Middle Earth still have a way to sail to Aman.

I would imagine they were transported to some sort of Mystical Aman, existing in a different plane of reality, but the Valar would still be able to see what's happening in Middle Earth, doesn't fundamentally change the prior conceptions and I think when Tolkien was talking about destruction vs preservation he was referring to the land, not its inhabitants.