Tuor's admittance to Valinor

[cellomagik]

Something that's been bothering me lately..why exactly was Tuor permitted to remain there?

Of course, he was given the life of the Elves which I assume was to save Idril from heartbreak, but it does seem strange considering that the Valar almost turned Earendil away.

Any thoughts?

 

[Arvedui]

First of all, we do not know for sure if Tuor was permitted to remain in Valinor:

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärràmë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

If we assume that it really is so that he came to the West (even Valinor is not certain if this is the case), then this might be because of the important part he played in this period. After all, he was instrumental in that at least some of the Noldor escaped from the sack of Gondolin, and he was after all the father of Eärendil.
But I am really not sure if Tuor was indeed accepted in the West. Could be just wishful thinking.

 

[Maerbenn]

Tolkien seems to confirm the immortality of Tuor with these passages in letter #153:

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

These have already been quoted many times on this message board.

The passage in the published Silmarillion is derived from the old Quenta of 1930 published in HoMe IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth:

But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressea; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

 

[Gothmog]

Indeed is it not certain that Tuor was granted the "Life of the Eldar". However, it is well within the bounds of possibility that not only would Eru be willing to do this for Tuor but that he may well have actively encouraged Tuor in some way to travel to Valinor to be granted this gift.

Luthien wed Beren and was allowed to become mortal. This could only be done by the will and intervention of Eru. Since one of the Eldar became Mortal is it so strange that Eru would want one Mortal to become of the Eldar to "Balance the Books" so to speak?

The others who were granted a choice of which kindred they would be joined to were already a mixture of Elvish and Manish kind. The half-elven were given this boon due to the position they were in. Luthien gave up her gift of immortality for Beren, Tuor gave up his gift of mortality for Idril. Seems that it all balances out.

 

[Arvegil]

Re: Tuor's admittance to Valinor (part I)

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]I addressed this question a while back; I figured the others on this thread might wish to view my (lengthy, I know) response to this

Here is my spin on why [the Tuor and Idril situation] gets done the way it is.

It has nothing to do with the overarching systems, but much more to do with Tolkien the writer, how he desired his characters’ fates to be resolved, his fondness for certain characters, and the fact that he painted himself into a bit of a corner on this issue. In order to get out of that corner, he needed to slough a Deus Ex Machina; undoubtedly, his demise before The Silmarillion was ready for publication prevented further integration into the whole system. Christopher Tolkien, wisely, chose to leave the contradiction in place.

I. Tolkien and his Love for Certain Characters

We know that Tolkien was willing to bend the construct of his world for some of the characters that he had above average fondness for. The most noteworthy example of this can be found in “Unfinished Tales,” in The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn. In earlier versions of Galadriel’s story (and in The Silmarillion), she is portrayed as a headstrong leader of the Noldor rebellion, almost a second point of influence behind Feanor. She seeks her own lands to rule. In later revisions, the Galadriel tale becomes progressively more favorable to the Galardriel character, to the point where she is actively opposing the worst excesses of Feanor and actually had leave to exit Valinor on her own prior to the Rebellion.

I think it is fair to say that Tuor was one of his favorites as well. Chosen as the messenger of the Valar, unique in his position as a human freely given leave to marry into Elfin nobility, co-engineering the flight of a portion of the Gondolindrim and being a hero in his own right in the process- a very favorable portrayal. In addition, Tuor’s story is one which Tolkien worked hard on integrating into his First Age saga; the fragment in “Unfinished Tales” shows a lot of time and effort put into the Tuor character.

II. Tolkien as a Romantic Writer

Okay, we all know that Tolkien had his limitations when writing about love and relationships. However, that does not mean that certain themes present themselves when he is writing about romantic love, and specifically in the context of the four mixed marriages mentioned in his works.

The first place to look at on any discussion of Tolkien as a romantic writer is the tale of Beren and Luthien. Luthien was given the choice between eternal respite in Valinor, or having a brief mortal life with Beren and following him into the human fate beyond the Circles of the World. Luthien chose the latter, motivated primarily by the fact that, to her, separated from her destined love, Valinor would be no respite at all.

The idea that these romantically linked couples should not be separated at death runs through other mixed marriages. In the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, Arwen had the option of an immortal life and gave it up to share Aragorn’s fate. Even at the time of his dying, when Aragorn suggests to Arwen that she attempt to reclaim her Elfin heritage, Arwen dismisses it as impossible. Her fate, and her eventual path outside of the Circles of the World, has been determined by her choice of Aragorn as her love. Once again, the question would come up: would Valinor be a place of respite if Arwen would be eternally separated from her love? It is a very reasonable inference that, for Arwen the answer is “no.”

For the third mixed marriage mentioned in Tolkien’s works, that of Thingol and Melian, the spirits of the two parties were destined to end up in the same place. Shortly after Thingol’s murder, Melian departs back to Valinor; after the appropriate time spent in the Halls of Mandos (Teleri Section) Thingol will be re-embodied in the Blessed Realm and Thingol and Melian can then be re-united there.

In each of these three couples, death does not result in a permanent separation where one is left within the Circles of the World while another leaves to an uncertain fate. Both parties share the same fate, whether within or outside the world. As the tale of Beren and Luthien makes clear, this idea that a romantically linked couple should not be separated by differing destinies within or without the world is an important one to the author.

III. Tuor and Idril

When it comes to Tuor and Idril, the same forces controlling a romantically linked couple come into play. One way or another, romance is eternal and should not be torn asunder by separate destinies. Unfortunately, Tolkien is in much more of a corner with this couple than with the others. Thingol and Melian could be reunited by a natural course of events. Arwen could choose her destiny under the privilege of being a descendant of Elrond. Luthien shares Beren’s destiny as a result of her one-off bargain with Mandos, consistent with the will of Iluvavar in that situation. But, under the natural course of events, Idril and Tuor would be separated eternally. Tuor would go off to the unknown human fate while Idril would find no rest and peace in either Valinor or the Halls of Mandos (thus precluding the possibility of pulling a Miriel) due to her destined love being beyond the Circles of the World.

I submit that, for Tolkien, it was unthinkable that some of the “A-List” characters who were romantically linked would have separate eternities- it did not square with his concepts of the “eternal” nature of romantic love. Hence the bind: without a Deus Ex Machina one way or the other, there was no way for Tuor to remain in the Blessed Realm, nor was there a way for Idril to leave the Circles of the World.

This position is not inconsistent with the letter previously cited, which noted that the Valar, acting on their own authority, would not be able to act in such a way as to unify this couple. If a Deus Ex Machina is involved, it can come from the very highest authority. It can fairly be stated that the marriage of Tuor and Idril was also a major building block in the master plan: after all, not only was their marriage and the beneficial results forthcoming prophesied in the death-vision of Huor, their marriage also was necessary to fulfill the conditions prophesied earlier to lift the Curse of Mandos. With the prophesied fate of Arda hanging in the balance of this marriage, Tolkien no doubt considered the fates of these characters to merit intervention by Iluvatar itself, especially when the “symmetry of fate” issue above is involved.

[/font]

 

[Arvegil]

Re: Tuor's admittance to Valinor (Part II)

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica](Continuation of previous post)


IV. Why change Tuor and not Idril?

As stated above, a Deus Ex Machina is going to be needed, one way or another, to eternally unite Idril and Tuor. Either Idril shares in the fate of humans, or Tuor shares the fate of Elves. The Valar do not have the authority to do either; in either case, intervention by Iluvatar is necessary. Which brings up the question: why change Tuor and not Idril?

While there is no direct proof on this matter, I suggest a “substantial contacts” analysis might have been the determining factor. As a first matter, Luthien’s choice is not applicable here; she gave up her mortality as part of an exchange to give Beren a second chance at life after he died. Both Tuor and Idril were alive and well at the time that the “conversion” would have to be made.

Idril had very little contact with humans outside of Tuor. In fact, it appears that the only three humans she ever met were Hurin, Huor, and Tuor. Idril always lived like an Elf; unlike Arwen, she had made no decision to become human.

Tuor actually also has many more contacts with Elves than humans. Fostered by Grey-Elves until his capture, Ulmo’s appointed emissary to Gondolin, leader of the Gondolindrim in their time of flight and exile- all Tuor’s heroic deeds were done as a lone human leading Elves. In fact, the only time he spends as an adult amongst humans, he was an Easterling slave. It can be reasonably said that Tuor was closer to Elvenkind than Idril was to Humans. Therefore, if a Deus Ex Machina has to take place to keep the two united, making Tuor’s destiny one with the (very familiar) Elves is much more consistent than the greater reach of making Idril’s destiny join with the very unfamiliar Humans.

V. Why Bother?

It has been pointed out by several people that Tolkien’s language (“It is sung…”) leaves a little factual wiggle room. Without denying that fact, I consider it far more important that the language exists in the first place. Tolkien was not unfamiliar with having characters literally sail off and not disclosing their fates; this is what happened to Amandil, Isildur’s grandfather. Had Tolkien desired to completely ignore this issue, he could have had Tuor and Idril sail off and not leave any wake (a fate would have also been consistent with the “history” aspect).

I also question whether the argument that the relevant language must necessarily have been filtered through Tuor’s human descendants (and therefore a reflection of their desires) is strictly on point for two reasons. First, the language used by Tolkien does not disclose whether it is Elves or Humans who are making this statement. Tuor had Elf descendants, including Elrond. Given that his life was spent primarily amongst the Elves, it is not unreasonable to assume that they would also have an interest in the fate of the human who lived amongst them and did so much in their service. Second, would not the Elves be in a better position to know these things? Especially if Tuor ended up residing in Eressa, along with many of the returned exiles?

The answer to “why bother” all goes back to the symmetry of fates issue. Tolkien knew that a Deus Ex Machina would be necessary to unite the fates of Tuor and Idril, which was an important point. I also submit that, rather than make it an overt Deus Ex Machina, Tolkien wanted to veil it just a little bit, in order to obscure the obviousness of Tolkien’s relying on an exception to get him out of this problem. Hence the indefiniteness of the language, which allows the reader to conclude that their fates have been united but softens the fact that a major exception to all the rules had to be made in order for this to happen.

VI. Odds and Ends

Once the necessity of a Deus Ex Machina (coming from the highest authority) is accepted, a lot of the minor issues also get covered in that solution. For instance, the issue of whether Tuor and Idril got to Valinor or not, or foundered in the Enchanted Isles, becomes of less significance. The same Deus Ex Machina which covers the fate of Tuor, can cover minor issues such as the exact path they took to reach their fate.

What remains significant, of course, is the fact that Iluvatar carved out a single exception to the Doom of Men. Perhaps the softer, almost speculative, language Tolkien uses is an attempt to balance two interests. He wanted to have symmetry of fate for his romantically linked couples, but did not wish to make the Deus Ex Machina aspect of this too obvious. The other unresolved problem is: how do other men react to this single exception? “With envy,” is the obvious answer. Perhaps the solution there might have been to acknowledge that Tuor was a one-off exception to the rule, possibly created in the Music of the Ainur. One can only speculate how Tolkien might have addressed this unique issue if given more time to work on it.[/font]

 

[Elostirion]

Arvegil's worthy comments are extremely interesting; mine are much simpler - I just don't feel Tuor deserved immortality compared to other equally significant men.

 

[Halasían]

Re: Tuor's admittance to Valinor (part I)

addressed this question a while back; I figured the others on this thread might wish to view my (lengthy, I know) response to this

Here is my spin on why [the Tuor and Idril situation] gets done the way it is.

It has nothing to do with the overarching systems, but much more to do with Tolkien the writer, how he desired his characters’ fates to be resolved, his fondness for certain characters, and the fact that he painted himself into a bit of a corner on this issue. In order to get out of that corner, he needed to slough a Deus Ex Machina; undoubtedly, his demise before The Silmarillion was ready for publication prevented further integration into the whole system. Christopher Tolkien, wisely, chose to leave the contradiction in place.

I. Tolkien and his Love for Certain Characters

We know that Tolkien was willing to bend the construct of his world for some of the characters that he had above average fondness for. The most noteworthy example of this can be found in “Unfinished Tales,” in The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn. In earlier versions of Galadriel’s story (and in The Silmarillion), she is portrayed as a headstrong leader of the Noldor rebellion, almost a second point of influence behind Feanor. She seeks her own lands to rule. In later revisions, the Galadriel tale becomes progressively more favorable to the Galardriel character, to the point where she is actively opposing the worst excesses of Feanor and actually had leave to exit Valinor on her own prior to the Rebellion.

I think it is fair to say that Tuor was one of his favorites as well. Chosen as the messenger of the Valar, unique in his position as a human freely given leave to marry into Elfin nobility, co-engineering the flight of a portion of the Gondolindrim and being a hero in his own right in the process- a very favorable portrayal. In addition, Tuor’s story is one which Tolkien worked hard on integrating into his First Age saga; the fragment in “Unfinished Tales” shows a lot of time and effort put into the Tuor character.

II. Tolkien as a Romantic Writer

Okay, we all know that Tolkien had his limitations when writing about love and relationships. However, that does not mean that certain themes present themselves when he is writing about romantic love, and specifically in the context of the four mixed marriages mentioned in his works.

The first place to look at on any discussion of Tolkien as a romantic writer is the tale of Beren and Luthien. Luthien was given the choice between eternal respite in Valinor, or having a brief mortal life with Beren and following him into the human fate beyond the Circles of the World. Luthien chose the latter, motivated primarily by the fact that, to her, separated from her destined love, Valinor would be no respite at all.

The idea that these romantically linked couples should not be separated at death runs through other mixed marriages. In the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, Arwen had the option of an immortal life and gave it up to share Aragorn’s fate. Even at the time of his dying, when Aragorn suggests to Arwen that she attempt to reclaim her Elfin heritage, Arwen dismisses it as impossible. Her fate, and her eventual path outside of the Circles of the World, has been determined by her choice of Aragorn as her love. Once again, the question would come up: would Valinor be a place of respite if Arwen would be eternally separated from her love? It is a very reasonable inference that, for Arwen the answer is “no.”

For the third mixed marriage mentioned in Tolkien’s works, that of Thingol and Melian, the spirits of the two parties were destined to end up in the same place. Shortly after Thingol’s murder, Melian departs back to Valinor; after the appropriate time spent in the Halls of Mandos (Teleri Section) Thingol will be re-embodied in the Blessed Realm and Thingol and Melian can then be re-united there.

In each of these three couples, death does not result in a permanent separation where one is left within the Circles of the World while another leaves to an uncertain fate. Both parties share the same fate, whether within or outside the world. As the tale of Beren and Luthien makes clear, this idea that a romantically linked couple should not be separated by differing destinies within or without the world is an important one to the author.

III. Tuor and Idril

When it comes to Tuor and Idril, the same forces controlling a romantically linked couple come into play. One way or another, romance is eternal and should not be torn asunder by separate destinies. Unfortunately, Tolkien is in much more of a corner with this couple than with the others. Thingol and Melian could be reunited by a natural course of events. Arwen could choose her destiny under the privilege of being a descendant of Elrond. Luthien shares Beren’s destiny as a result of her one-off bargain with Mandos, consistent with the will of Iluvavar in that situation. But, under the natural course of events, Idril and Tuor would be separated eternally. Tuor would go off to the unknown human fate while Idril would find no rest and peace in either Valinor or the Halls of Mandos (thus precluding the possibility of pulling a Miriel) due to her destined love being beyond the Circles of the World.

I submit that, for Tolkien, it was unthinkable that some of the “A-List” characters who were romantically linked would have separate eternities- it did not square with his concepts of the “eternal” nature of romantic love. Hence the bind: without a Deus Ex Machina one way or the other, there was no way for Tuor to remain in the Blessed Realm, nor was there a way for Idril to leave the Circles of the World.

This position is not inconsistent with the letter previously cited, which noted that the Valar, acting on their own authority, would not be able to act in such a way as to unify this couple. If a Deus Ex Machina is involved, it can come from the very highest authority. It can fairly be stated that the marriage of Tuor and Idril was also a major building block in the master plan: after all, not only was their marriage and the beneficial results forthcoming prophesied in the death-vision of Huor, their marriage also was necessary to fulfill the conditions prophesied earlier to lift the Curse of Mandos. With the prophesied fate of Arda hanging in the balance of this marriage, Tolkien no doubt considered the fates of these characters to merit intervention by Iluvatar itself, especially when the “symmetry of fate” issue above is involved.

and...

Re: Tuor's admittance to Valinor (Part II)

(Continuation of previous post)


IV. Why change Tuor and not Idril?

As stated above, a Deus Ex Machina is going to be needed, one way or another, to eternally unite Idril and Tuor. Either Idril shares in the fate of humans, or Tuor shares the fate of Elves. The Valar do not have the authority to do either; in either case, intervention by Iluvatar is necessary. Which brings up the question: why change Tuor and not Idril?

While there is no direct proof on this matter, I suggest a “substantial contacts” analysis might have been the determining factor. As a first matter, Luthien’s choice is not applicable here; she gave up her mortality as part of an exchange to give Beren a second chance at life after he died. Both Tuor and Idril were alive and well at the time that the “conversion” would have to be made.

Idril had very little contact with humans outside of Tuor. In fact, it appears that the only three humans she ever met were Hurin, Huor, and Tuor. Idril always lived like an Elf; unlike Arwen, she had made no decision to become human.

Tuor actually also has many more contacts with Elves than humans. Fostered by Grey-Elves until his capture, Ulmo’s appointed emissary to Gondolin, leader of the Gondolindrim in their time of flight and exile- all Tuor’s heroic deeds were done as a lone human leading Elves. In fact, the only time he spends as an adult amongst humans, he was an Easterling slave. It can be reasonably said that Tuor was closer to Elvenkind than Idril was to Humans. Therefore, if a Deus Ex Machina has to take place to keep the two united, making Tuor’s destiny one with the (very familiar) Elves is much more consistent than the greater reach of making Idril’s destiny join with the very unfamiliar Humans.

V. Why Bother?

It has been pointed out by several people that Tolkien’s language (“It is sung…”) leaves a little factual wiggle room. Without denying that fact, I consider it far more important that the language exists in the first place. Tolkien was not unfamiliar with having characters literally sail off and not disclosing their fates; this is what happened to Amandil, Isildur’s grandfather. Had Tolkien desired to completely ignore this issue, he could have had Tuor and Idril sail off and not leave any wake (a fate would have also been consistent with the “history” aspect).

I also question whether the argument that the relevant language must necessarily have been filtered through Tuor’s human descendants (and therefore a reflection of their desires) is strictly on point for two reasons. First, the language used by Tolkien does not disclose whether it is Elves or Humans who are making this statement. Tuor had Elf descendants, including Elrond. Given that his life was spent primarily amongst the Elves, it is not unreasonable to assume that they would also have an interest in the fate of the human who lived amongst them and did so much in their service. Second, would not the Elves be in a better position to know these things? Especially if Tuor ended up residing in Eressa, along with many of the returned exiles?

The answer to “why bother” all goes back to the symmetry of fates issue. Tolkien knew that a Deus Ex Machina would be necessary to unite the fates of Tuor and Idril, which was an important point. I also submit that, rather than make it an overt Deus Ex Machina, Tolkien wanted to veil it just a little bit, in order to obscure the obviousness of Tolkien’s relying on an exception to get him out of this problem. Hence the indefiniteness of the language, which allows the reader to conclude that their fates have been united but softens the fact that a major exception to all the rules had to be made in order for this to happen.

VI. Odds and Ends

Once the necessity of a Deus Ex Machina (coming from the highest authority) is accepted, a lot of the minor issues also get covered in that solution. For instance, the issue of whether Tuor and Idril got to Valinor or not, or foundered in the Enchanted Isles, becomes of less significance. The same Deus Ex Machina which covers the fate of Tuor, can cover minor issues such as the exact path they took to reach their fate.

What remains significant, of course, is the fact that Iluvatar carved out a single exception to the Doom of Men. Perhaps the softer, almost speculative, language Tolkien uses is an attempt to balance two interests. He wanted to have symmetry of fate for his romantically linked couples, but did not wish to make the Deus Ex Machina aspect of this too obvious. The other unresolved problem is: how do other men react to this single exception? “With envy,” is the obvious answer. Perhaps the solution there might have been to acknowledge that Tuor was a one-off exception to the rule, possibly created in the Music of the Ainur. One can only speculate how Tolkien might have addressed this unique issue if given more time to work on it.

It's amazing what I stumble upon from the past. How I found myself here, I clicked on a link posted in Arvegil's introduction thread that me me to the Silmarillion forum!

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I think I found the site googling for info on Tom Bombadil and found someone's very well written essay on him. I love digging through the archives for old fascinating discussions