🕷️Ungoliant: The First of the Free Agents

[Harad]

'The illustrated guide to Tolkien'

might have good maps and other materials but its not the last word in interpretation of JRRT, absent evidence in JRRT backing it up.

 

[elenya]

Gnashar's got a point though. That does make more sens than aliens. But aren't maias just spirits? Can spirits really...uh...mate?

 

[Harad]

Sure. Gandalf had three kids: Gandalf Jr., Gandalfina, and Gandelabra the Weird.

But seriously if I write a book and say that Ungoliant was an Alien from LV-426, does that make it more believable.

 

[Eonwe]

no! Bill and Hillary Clinton are from LV-426. I heard it on Art Bell. Ungoliant is from BR549

 

[elenya]

Originally posted by Eonwe
no! Bill and Hillary Clinton are from LV-426. I heard it on Art Bell. Ungoliant is from BR549

I knew there had to be a reasonable explanation!

 

[DGoeij]

Going from memory here, but wasn't their some serious turmoil when Melkor started his own music after a while and then it had to be subdued by Illuvatar himself? Melkor was his most powerfull offspring, so I guess that the collision between the two themes must have caused some side-effects? At least it would explain Ungoliaths powers, constraining the mighty Tulkas and all.

And if not, there's always Forty-Two.

 

[elenya]

That was one of the first theories posted I think but Iluvatar tried to kill the dwarves when they were created so why would he be any different with Ungoliant?

Crazy though: Maybe he didn't -know- about Un goliant and that's why he never killed her!

 

[DGoeij]

From the dwarves we at least know for certain that Manwe (EDIT: It is Aule who created them, stupid! Thanks Telchar) created them and that Iluvatar spared them in the end. Only thing we know of Ungoliath is that she/he/it came from darkness.
So the passerby-alien theory is not a bad thought if you look at it.

I do not feel much for the 'Illustrated guide to Tolkien'. Its a nice peice of work, I've seen it once in a library, but any person with a little knowledge of the works of professor Tolkien can have its own thoughts about Ungoliath. IMHO there isn't much of professor Tolkiens own writing that seriously suggest that Ungoliath was a Maia.

 

[elenya]

I thought I saw that Illustraded Guide and I never saw any pictures of Ungoliant -or- Shelob! But that doesn't make any sens her being a Maia. I just can't get how she'd get a physical form. an any Maia take physical form? And did someone say Gandalf was a Maia? Cause that just doesn't seem right.

 

[Telchar]

It was Aule the Smith who created the Dwarves.
As for Ungoliant,

Originally posted by dgoof911
she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda

The "darkness that lies about Arda" is the Void where all the Ainur came from. That may mean that she in the beginning came with the other Ainur. So Ungoliant may have been a maia, like Sauron, who were corrupted by Melkor.

 

[Telchar]

Originally posted by elenya
I just can't get how she'd get a physical form. an any Maia take physical form? And did someone say Gandalf was a Maia? Cause that just doesn't seem right.

A Maia, belonging to the race of the Ainur, can take on any shape they want to. Yes, Gandalf was a Maia, he's original name was Olorin.
Saruman, Radagast and Sauron were Maiar too.

A Maia is more powerful than an Elf, and when they want to walk among the Children of Iluvatar they may walk unseen or they can take a shape, like an Elf or a Human, just like we wear cloths in a way.

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Telchar


A Maia, belonging to the race of the Ainur, can take on any shape they want to. Yes, Gandalf was a Maia, he's original name was Olorin.
Saruman, Radagast and Sauron were Maiar too.

A Maia is more powerful than an Elf, and when they want to walk among the Children of Iluvatar they may walk unseen or they can take a shape, like an Elf or a Human, just like we wear cloths in a way.

Yes that is right i beleive she was a maia and there is know way she could be a vala.

 

[Eonwe]

The Ungoliant as a Maia idea was questioned, I think rightly by Grond and Harad, because we can't find a specific reference in the book that says she is a Maia, or that she is one of the Ainur.

 

[elenya]

One of the Ainur is just too far fetched. I suppose her being a Maia makes more sens now. But I still doubt it. Maybe Iluvatar inadvertantly made it when he made Arda(I think it was Arda...) because of Melkor's theme. Still...you gotta love the alien theory!

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by elenya
One of the Ainur is just too far fetched. I suppose her being a Maia makes more sens now. But I still doubt it. Maybe Iluvatar inadvertantly made it when he made Arda(I think it was Arda...) because of Melkor's theme. Still...you gotta love the alien theory!

Your post confuses me elenya. The Ainur were both the Vala and the Maia. They sprung from the mind of Eru and were the governing hierchy of Middle-earth. Ungoliant being a Maia makes no sense because the author never mentions it. Ungoliant was one of the unexplained creatures to which Gandalf refers when speaking to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas about the Balrog. I don't have my book with me but the quote goes something like, "in the deepest caverns under Khazad-dum, deeper than the Dwarves ever delved, lay nameless evil creatures. Sauron knows them not for they are older than he." That's from memory and not quite right but you can get what is being said. There were things in the music that were totally unexpected. One must remember that the final Movement of the Music was sung by Eru alone. From it sprung Elves and Men and Ents and those things which would have sentient thought save the Dwarves which were made by Aule and given sentient thought by Eru.

One can only speculate that Eru made some of these things for the purpose of testing his own Vala and Maia. It is clear that Ungoliant came from the darkness that lies about Arda. That doesn't mean she was an Ainur from the thought of Eru. I feel certain that were she a Maia, the author would have informed us. In my opinion she is something else, much like Tom Bombadil.

 

[Eonwe]

yeah I never thought of that before. Tom Bombadil is Ungoliant! kwl

 

[elenya]

Grond, don't worry. I confuse myself too. Everything that I usually post makes more sense in my mind then I try to type it and it sounds very...incoherent.

Ok I admit the Maia stuff does make sens.

 

[Harad]

she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda

I am now going way out there, extending my alien theory to say that Ungoliant was FORMED from the darkness and then descended from it. Its a physical reality that JRRT might have been aware of that something can come from nothing. The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self. Her darkness was so profound that even Tulkas was helpless therein. From darkness and into darkness: Ungoliant.

 

[Eonwe]

Ungoliant = quantum instability kwl

 

[Merry]

Maia/Vala, Maia/Vala, Maia/Vala.......

This is so reminiscent of previous threads on Tom B, if JRRT has not specified what she is and where she comes from, it is pointless trying to create a history or classify her under a certain race. She has powers that could be likened to Maia or Vala but the simple fact is that she isn't listed as being either. I still believe that she is just a terrible spirit that arose from the dark and that she should remain a mysterious evil character.

I would even support Harad on his nutty theory of her being an alien because at least this way she remains no part of the known Middle-Earth.