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Was Boromir's proposed alternative strategy flawed?

Olorgando said:
So perhaps the question might be how JRRT might have viewed succumbing to the respective temptation: would he have considered this evil?
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This is exactly the crux of the matter, well stated.

In Ent's mind, it can be expressed in this way:

"Because we become doers of evil things, does that mean we have become evil."

Or: "Do we do what we do because it's what we are, or do we become what we are because of what we do, or is the doing and being entirely separate altogether."

Given Tolkien's particular Catholic background, and most probable concept of God, good, and evil, within his theology, Ent would concede Tolkien wouild likely see a difference between being 'doers of evil' and 'being evil.'

In which case, Deimos is justified in his 'challenge' if you will, to Ent's stated opinion they 'became evil'.
It would be more accurate to say "they became doers of evil because of their own inclinations and choices' etc.
(again, depending on how Deimos defines 'evil'.)

These are distinctions many religions and thinkers do try to draw. "Because we do a thing, does that make us a thing." The ever present attempt to see and explain things from the viewpoint and understanding of mankind rather than the viewpoint of Deity.

If this is Deimos' approach or basis for the challenge, Ent has no argument with it whatsoever. From many perspectives, and most likely Tolkien's, their predilections and eventual 'doings' did not 'make' them become. Nor were they done 'because they were'. They simply 'did stuff' because of circumstances.

The ever-present argument: Does what you do make you what you are or become... or do you do what you do because of what you are or have become. Or, does one have any bearing on the other at all.

what a world, what a world.
 
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The same can be said of Frodo. He claimed the Ring as his own at Sammath Naur, and it was Sméagol and providence that took matters out of his hand (literally). The whole point of the Ring's threat was that none could resist it in the end, though some, like Frodo, could resist it longer than others.

I wouldn't call what happened in the interactions between Denethor and Sauron a temptation. Denethor was driven to despair by what he saw. Sauron could not make the Ithil Stone lie, but yes he could certainly give Denethor the grimmest picture. But in reality, what Denethor saw was the truth, that even victory for a day on the Pelennor was only a delay.

Denethor's fall, no doubt driven in part by the death of Boromir, and then by what he thought was Faramir's mortal wound, was a loss of his faith. Tolkien's work is a fundamentally Catholic work, in which Faith-with-a-capital-F plays an enormous role. Gandalf knew exactly the same set of facts as Denethor, indeed knew in deeper ways than even Denethor could know the extraordinary folly of sending a Halfling into the heart of Sauron's power to destroy the Ring, but unlike Denethor, Gandalf never lost faith that good will, hope and Providence (or Eru or whatever you want to call it), opened the chance that the Ring might be destroyed.

Denethor saw the foolishness of Gandalf's plan, but not the thread of hope upon which it clung, and thus when faced with his moment of darkness, he literally could see no reason to live.
 
Agreed. But JRRT himself conceded often enough that the setting of Third Age Middle-earth is thousands of years before the coming of Christ, so that another aspect that influenced his writing should not be overlooked ...
MightyMartian said:
Denethor saw the foolishness of Gandalf's plan, but not the thread of hope upon which it clung, and thus when faced with his moment of darkness, he literally could see no reason to live.
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It's been criticized often enough that in PJ'S works, in that of Amazon, and probably the earlier adaptations the Christian, specifically Catholic underpinnings of JRRT's writings are hardly to be seen, if at all. One reason is the subtlety of his writing - and hardly anyone would claim subtlety to be a strong suit of the "moving picture" genres of media, least of all in the blockbuster segment. But JRRT wasn't a theologian. His professional specialty included the ever-present "Beowulf" and Norse writing mainly from Iceland, from which he gleaned the "Northern Theory of Courage", as Tom Shippey points out. To simplify it, it runs about so: "Oh, we're going to lose? I care not."
To adhere to this mind-set, Denethor should have shrugged off what he saw in the Palantir, even the death of one son and the apparent mortal wounding of the second, and prepare to make the attackers rue their attack on Minas Tirith even if they were victorious. He didn't.

In contrast, Aragorn led the forces that marched to the Black Gate. Except for a very slim hope, it was a suicide mission - but for him the right thing to do whatever the outcome.
 
Chiming in late here, (and am probably stating the obvious) but I think it's the One Ring itself ( and his proximity to it) that heightens Boromir's hubris and sense of self-grandeur.

Probably because he couldn't help himself. Remember, Saruman couldn't conceal his lust for the Ring from Gandalf, and he wasn't ever even near the thing. And he was much more apt to trickery than Boromir; Boromir, even though tempted by the Ring, wasn't a naturally a devious sort of person; nothing really for the Ring to grab onto there.
 
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Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand...
~ Metallica ("Holier Than Thou")
 
Just a thought, but I definitely think that Boromir could have been changed on an internal level by his lust for the Ring. As we know, the Ring essentially brings out the worst in someone, and in that case, Boromir's natural and healthy pride for his country and love for Gondor and the Race of Men, could drive him to arrogance and thinking that they were better than everyone else. I've always imagined the Ring to be like sin, twisting even the good desires and intentions of the heart into some wickedly devious scheme.
 
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men…"
Lord Acton 1887.
Sauron forged the One Ring as an instrument of power, of domination of all the other Great Rings, especially The Three of the Elves.
That is why it resonates most with those who already have tasted power, and hunger for more. Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Faramir were wise enough to recognize the corrupting, corrosive force of the power that the One Ring would bestow. Boromir and Denethor were not.
Hobbits simply didn't have that natural urge towards power, not even the one who showed the greatest inclination to something of the sort among them, Lotho "Pimple" Sackville-Baggins - and he needed prodding.
Now we know where the 20 Great Rings (1+3+7+9) ended up. But the smiths of Eregion were practicing for 300 years before they tackled the Rings of Power (taking 90 years to complete those). That could have left a lot of trinkets floating around into all sorts of directions. The Dwarves of Moria could well have been a conduit for trade with them.
Certainly rings as insignia of rulers, and as gifts rulers gave to loyal vassals, have percolated through human history everywhere ...
 
Radaghast said:
it's the One Ring itself ( and his proximity to it) that heightens Boromir's hubris and sense of self-grandeur.
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This is part of Ent's point. "We bring our own problems with us." The Ring is more than happy to work on what we already are and heighten it. Far easier to quickly subvert those who are the more subvertable, than to do so to the ones of a different internal character.

Simply the reality of the human condition.

Put, perhaps, in more current terms, Boromir's "worldview" and how that led him to think about things, plus his inner bent to "be something" within that worldview, coupled with his realization both of his responsibility to his people and his deep-seated if hidden desire for the power he would contain within it, were great fodder for the ring. And, his worldview was narrow. Note his primary concern - "Gondor". He sees little or nothing of that small world, as his speech at every return reveals. His aspirations were a great flaw the ring could subvert.

Frodo had an entirely different worldview, as did Bilbo. Nor did either aspire to great things. Bilbo's challenge compared to Frodos was very small, but his simplicity and contentedness with the world and his lot in it left him without nearly the flaws for the ring to work on. Frodo's worldview, very similar to Bilbos, was greatly expanded as he learned more and more about 'the world outside the Shire' and all that was at hand and in play. But he retained his simplistic core.

To express why, in the end, the Ring would subvert everyone, we need simply to look at Tolkien's Christian background.

It is well expressed by Master Po from the movie Kung Fu. "Who among us is without flaw?" (Keye Luke)
 
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I agree that the Hobbits and a very low lust for power. Even Gollum in his cave all those years was not lusting for power, just his possessiveness over the Ring. The lust for Power for Gollum did come stronger as they got closer to Morder. In his inner debate between Smeagol/Gollum he imagined getting the Ring back and paying revenge on all who wronged him. Then he started to imagine what he could do with the Power: "See , my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum!!...." Even Gollum wasn't thinking of ruling per se, just selfish musings that many of us might feel if we won the lottery and what we would do with the money. Sam was actually on the brink of Mordor when tempted by the Ring and imagined creating gardens and becoming Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land to overthrow Barad-dur and turn Mordor into a garden of flowers and trees. We can only imagine what temptations were eating away at Frodo as he got closer and closer to Mordor and Mt. Doom. But again, Frodo's decision to destroy the Ring and keep the Ring safe is an extremely important point. He did not choose to keep the Ring for mere possession.(although the Ring was acting on Frodo, and Frodo had difficulty parting with it, even to throw it into the fire at Bag End) Even Bilbo initially kept the Ring as a possession that gave him the ability to be invisible. Frodo was not keeping the Ring to use its power, but how he must have struggled internally with It every step closer to Mordor must have been tortuous.
 
I must defend Boromir here. He is a midieval hero, like Roland or El Cid or Sir Lancelot. He is defending his city and is its champion. Of course he is proud! Are not all those other guys proud? He need the strongest weapon he can find to defend Gondor. He believes it will fall otherwise. After all, he has fought the troops of Mordor and has only heard about the power of the Ring. And so he was tempted and convinced himself that his desire for the Ring was pure altruism. Boromir lacks humility. It strikes me that Tolkien is here silently criticizing theideal of the classic hero. Sir Gareth does not get too much aclaim in Malory or Tennyson, but I bet Tolkien liked him.
 
Muskrat said:
must defend Boromir here.
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Boromir is difficult to stop considering, isn't he? And in considering him, one bumps into an innumerable number of angles for consideration.

At the end of the day in my more recent ponderings, I've come to a 'one liner' to describe my feeling for him... even after realizing he was the only one who joined the 9 with no intention of possibly seeing it through to the end, but only with the intention of returning to his beloved Gondor. None of the rest had intentions so 'limited' - and yet Boromir was well aware 'if Gondor fell Middle-earth fell.'

Here's my 'one-liner.'

Boromir lived for Gondor, but died for the people.

Standing on its own, it needs explanation. Even Boromir's 'living for Gondor' was out of an awareness and recognition much broader than just Gondor itself. And that 'much broader' aspect showed itself as he died protecting what could be called the two lowliest people among the Nine Walkers.

Were he as arogant and self-absorbed as thoughts often suggest, he would never have considered sacrificing himself on the alter of the lives of those two...while being clueless about what was happening with the others of the company, and the ring was moving on. He had no idea he was a key element in distraction, for the rest of the story to continue on.

No, no... the more I ponder the depth of Boromir, the more i see there is clearly a true giant within him... and as he had them all focused on himself and the lowliest hobbits, the Ring was enabled to proceed on its journey. (Providence.)

His role will be featured in my book.

Poor Boromir? I think not so any more. He stands tall among the legends of Middle-earth.
 
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My investigator’s ex-wife is a mitigation soecialist for death penalty cases. She argues that none of us would fare very well if we were only judged by the worst five minutes of our lives, a sentiment worth remembering when we too hastily judge others.
 
There is one uncompromising point about the One Ring: nobody can use it except Sauron. Probably only two characters in the book could have really become Ring Lords, the other two Maiar Saruman and Gandalf. But they would have become just that, Sauron 2.0.
Boromir doesn't seem to realize what the meaning of the Nazgûl is: every man using a Ring of Power inevitably becomes a wraith, and a slave to that ring. At least a few of the Ringwraiths were Númenóreans - of the Second Age, enslaved to their rings over 4,000 years before the events of LotR. So what chance does someone at the end of the Third Age, even Aragorn, descended directly in over 60 - Númenórean! - generations from Elros, stand against the One Ring? It would be like someone with no knowledge of how to handle it riding around in his delivery van (think UPS) with a hydrogen bomb rattling around in the back.
 
In fact, didn't Faramir piece it all together after questioning Frodo and Sam and acknowledge that the lure of the Ring's power had compromised his brother?
 

Umm.. I wouldn't equalize effects of the other rings with the one, on the humans.
I don't think humans would become wraith by using The One ring.. The One ring was to create to rule, not to enslave it's holder.
I agree however, that only Gandalf and Saruman (and probably Balrog) would learn to use the ring at full potential.
Maybe even the likes of Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, Glorfindel... they would at least be capable to use majority of it's powers.

But humans also wouldn't be wise to discard that easily.
Aragorn, for example, I think would be capable to challenge Sauron, if he had ring for long time, and could gather very large army, and eventually defeat him.
 
d4rk3lf said:
I don't think humans would become wraith by using The One ring.. The One ring was to create to rule, not to enslave it's holder.
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Actually, Sauron, in pouring a better part of his power into the One Ring, had made himself a slave to it in a way, as @Ent has pointed out more than once.
But with it being Sauron's power in the One Ring, anybody but Sauron handling it would be at odds with the power of it.
Then, as JRRT once stated, in a letter IIRC, that Gandalf could have trebled his power with the One Ring. Which must mean that the power in the One Ring was greater than the native power of any potential user (including reduced Sauron himself), from Saruman and Gandalf on down. Which could be the reason why no one would have been able to change the One Ring. Not that JRRT ever stated this so explicitly, to my knowledge, but it seems a reasonable inference.
 
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d4rk3lf said:
Umm.. I wouldn't equalize effects of the other rings with the one, on the humans.
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Why not? Bilbo told Gandalf of feeling like "like butter that has been scraped over too much bread" and Gollum lived for a long time after losing the Ring, suggesting he was on the cusp of becoming a Wraith.

d4rk3lf said:
I don't think humans would become wraith by using The One ring.. The One ring was to create to rule, not to enslave it's holder.
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Yeah, but only Sauron could use it without its affecting him, because he (and the Ring) is already Sauron. I don't see any reason to think the One would affect a human any differently than any of the others (not counting the Elven rings; I couldn't guess what affect those would have on humans).


Tolkien would have disagreed with you:
 
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Well Ok... I can agreed with all that.
What I primarily meant by not turning into a wraith, was that they won't be controlled by another entity.
And if the human is not controlled, who cares if he is a wraith or not?
What I meant is that The One Ring was not made to make anyone slave, unlike the other great rings.
It didn't had that flaw in the design.. flaw that Sauron implemented intentionally in other rings, and even in the three that he didn't even touched, but he probably guided elves to make them with that flaw.

About professor words.. thanks for the quote.
I was under the impression (from the books) that Sauron was very much in fear that Aragorn could claim the ring. They even used that fear to make diversion in the last battle. From Gandalf words "No, he will not laugh..." I understood that Sauron main suspect in having the ring is Aragorn himself... especially after the Palantir play.
 
I think the One Ring would artificially extend a human's life just as any of the other 16, thus making them undead beings. The main difference would be that the One would grant a human greater power, just as the Nine gave nine human kings power over others, though the wearer would still be the slave and not the master.

Yes, Tolkien does seem to contradict himself here, though this is somewhat addressed in the book:
At the same time, in his arrogance and hubris, Sauron believes the opposition at the Black Gate will be crushed, whether they have the Ring or not and no matter how many mighty names are in attendance. Of course, without Frodo, Sam and Gollum, he'd be right.
 
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