Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda?

[Maedhros]

A closer look at the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

The Athrabeth is a conversation between Finrod Felagund and Andreth, the Wise. Their conversation basically was about the notion that Men had regarding their coming into the World. In it a discussion began about the nature of both Elves and Men. Men believed that they were at first immortal as the Eldar were and that they were changed by the malice of Melkor. But as we know, that is not possible, Melkor had not the power to alter the fate of the Children of Ilúvatar.

posted by OiE
Well by the Malice of Melkor Men were deceived and seduced away from Ilúvatar, this resulted in Ilúvatar shortening the span of life for Men. So it was by the Malice of Melkor that the lives of Men were shortened even though Melkor could not do this directly himself. So I will accept the truth contained in the quote used and until there is evidence to disprove the earlier quotes I accept also the truth of them.

This is interesting but not true. In the Tale of Adanel, it is stated that the voice of the One, is the one that shortens the life of Men, but remember that the Tale is only a tradition that had approximately 400 years of existence and it can’t be taken as fact. But we might use Finrod’s word concerning the Marring of Arda and the effects on the hröa of the Children.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hröar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.
'And likewise with the hröar of Men, they are weaker than they should be. Thus it comes to pass that here in the West, to which of old his power scarcely extended, they have more health, as you say.'

Interesting aspect about the Tale and opportunities
My friends of OiE complain that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men and that the Valar had abandoned them. That is of course not true.

Tale of Adanel
Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'

In the tradition of Men, this voice is Ilúvatar and notice that it was the first message that Men had when they reached ME. Ilúvatar had communicated with them.

In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.

Notice that while they had a communication with Ilúvatar, they decided to do as they would. Free will.

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.'

Then this is Melkor, and he tried to deceive Men:

We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'
Then in fear we spoke as he commanded, saying: 'Thou art the Lord; Thee only we will serve. The Voice we abjure and will not hearken to it again.'

But ultimately, Men chose to disregard The Voice (Eru) in favor of Melkor. Even in this Tale, Ilúvatar was involved with Men, he taught them, but they chose Melkor instead. How would my friends of OiE would have it then? Should Eru force Men against their will then? I think not. It is noteworthy that some Men fled away from the influence of Melkor to the west and even aided the Valar in the War of Wrath.

Estel
Even though Men had no knowledge of the future, they had hope for the future, that healing could be found.

'It cannot be unsaid,' answered Andreth, 'if you would understand the despair in which we walk. Or in which most Men walk. Among the Atani, as you call us, or the Seekers as we say: those who left the lands of despair and the Men of darkness and journeyed west in vain hope: it is believed that healing may yet be found, or that there is some way of escape. But is this indeed Estel? Is it not Amdir rather; but without reason: mere flight in a dream from what waking they know: that there is no escape from darkness and death?'

Where does that hope comes from then?

'Ask me not yet,' he answered. 'For it is still to me but strange news that comes from afar. No such hope was ever spoken to the Quendi. To you only it was sent. And yet through you we may hear it and lift up our hearts.' He paused a while, and then looking gravely at Andreth he said: 'Yes, Wise-woman, maybe it was ordained that we Quendi, and ye Atani, ere the world grows old, should meet and bring news one to another, and so we should learn of the Hope from you

Is it not interesting that while Men had a far shorter life than Elves, it would be Men that would teach Hope to Elves.

The supposed absence of the Valar concerning Men
While reading the Athrabeth, one can gain important motifs regarding the wisdom of the Valar. If you take as true, (as my friends of OiE) the Tale of Adanel, then the Valar had no reason to interfere with them because Eru was already involved with Men since the very beginning.
There is also an important aspect about the nature of the Valar and Men. The Valar are beings that are tied to Arda and bound to remain in it to the end. Men, as we know, have a faith entirely different from them.

'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.

So you see, the supposed absence of the Valar is non existent. Simple.

Is it not ironic that Men, the ones who according to OiE were abandoned by Eru, would be in the end, the instrument of the final defeat of Melkor and in the making of Arda Healed a thing greater than Arda Unmarred.

Then this must surely follow: the fëa when it departs must take with it the hröa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fëa shall have the power to uplift the hröa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Eä, and beyond Time? Thus would Arda, or part thereof, be healed not only of the taint of Melkor, but released even from the limits that were set for it in the "Vision of Eru" of which the Valar speak.

The supposed victim becomes the savior in the end.

I think that this passage from The Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur, explains it beautifully:

Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."

 

[Ancalagon]

I sometimes wonder if I would be just as well served to post entire chapters of Tolkiens work as a post, rather than actually deliver a post with a touch of my own thoughts on the matter. However, on this occassion I shall post my thoughts and possibly throw in an odd quote in support.

My dear colleagues of Ost-in-Edhil have already put forth some wonderful posts in relation to this vexing question. "Why is such a vexing question," I hear you cry! Well, for one it would seem quite difficult to quantify such an arguement considering there is scant evidence that Ilúvatar chose to interfere in the affairs of Arda, other than a few references which have been pointed out.

Yet, the facts speak for themselves, that Ilúvatar distanced himself from the mechanics of Arda, and allowed his own vice-regents and children to govern their own affairs. Self-determination, self-governance and of course the classic 'free-will.' Ilúvatar from the outset had no intention of intervening in the ordering of the affairs of Arda. His influence can be seen in all things in Arda, because all originates with him, yet this does not satisfy a suitable response to the question of whether he was sufficiently involved in Arda by his actions, nor specifically whether he could have done more.

Already my esteemed colleagues have made reference to Men; Children wandering aimlessly in the dark. Even the voice in the wilderness does little to guide them, irrespective of the fact that Melkor encircles Ilúvatar's own secondborn, as a wolf encircles his prey. Consider for a moment, your own child, new to this world and ignorant of the evil that lurks within it. Do you allow them to grow up without your guidance, your teaching, your care and support? Do you send them out unwittingly and unprepared into a world fraught with traps and pitfalls without first seeking to prepare them?

In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.

Is this a suitable way to raise your own while the wolf waits at the door? For even when Melkor comes among them, Ilúvatar offers no advice, no guidance, no warning of their peril. They are eager to learn and he shows them nothing. They seek to understand the world around them yet know nothing of what dangers lie in wait. Maedhros has cunningly produced his statement of evidence that is supposed to support the theory that Ilúvatar's involvement in the coming of Man was more than mere lip service. Yet, all I see in the quotes posted are evidence that Men were left unguarded and unsupported. Melkor is ever accused by many of deciept and lies, yet ever in the web of Melkors words lie seeds of truth. Surely this is the secret of his success! Consider this quote from The Athrabeth.

But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.

Who's Children are they that seek and yearn, thirst for knowledge to understand and grow? Who gave rise to the thoughts of Man? These thoughts arise before Melkor appears, these are the Children of Eru himself and yet he neglected them when they were most vulnerable. Is there not truth then in the words of Melkor?

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.'

Surely he fathomed the minds of Men and saw the neglect, else why would he use such cunning words to tempt them in such a manner?
Then again, did Melkor not also know that Ilúvatar gifted Man with 'free-will?' Was this not a tool with which he was able to manipulate and devise his most heinous acts upon such unsuspecting prey? Melkor exploited Ilúvatar's inaction in Arda to devastating effect for much longer than was ever necessary.

 

[Gothmog]

by Maedhros
In the Tale of Adanel, it is stated that the voice of the One, is the one that shortens the life of Men, but remember that the Tale is only a tradition that had approximately 400 years of existence and it can't be taken as fact. But we might use Finrod's word concerning the Marring of Arda and the effects on the hröa of the Children.

Yes it is true that this tale is only a tradition. It is also true that it is a tradition of mere Men and of course the Histories of the Elves would have greater weight. However, where are the "Histories of the Elves" that we can refer to?

The words of JRR Tolkien from Myths Transformed
It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). But we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas

So if we cannot trust the traditions of Men we are left with the problem that nothing can then be trusted as all of it comes to us tainted by the stain of being of "Mannish Tradition". Therefore all is of equal relevance.

My friends of OiE complain that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men and that the Valar had abandoned them. That is of course not true.

Where is the complaint that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men? Ilúvatar created Men, how could he not be involved in their coming???

And as for the Valar not having anything to do with Men, this is not a complaint. It is a statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less. The Valar did not Abandon Men. They had nothing to do with Men because Men were the province Solely of Ilúvatar himself.

OiE maintain not " that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men" but that He did less than he should have in respect of Men. Something totally different to the claim of my friend from the Scholars.

Should Eru force Men against their will then? I think not.

Nor do I think that Ilúvatar should have forced Men against their will. But this was not needed. Let us look again at the tale of Adanel

Then he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.
We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'

This shows that Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to prove to Men that he was indeed Master. Ilúvatar could have, and should have, prevented the blotting out of the Sun. Then Melkor would have at the least have had to work much harder and Men would not have had what seems to be proof that Melkor was indeed the greater.

There is also an important aspect about the nature of the Valar and Men. The Valar are beings that are tied to Arda and bound to remain in it to the end. Men, as we know, have a faith entirely different from them.

I wonder why there is this need from the Scholars to constantly include the Valar and their actions in this debate? The Valar did their work. How well or how badly is a different question. We are debating about Ilúvatar's involvement. Arvedui only referred to the Valar to show that Ilúvatar had delegated his authority to them.

So you see, the supposed absence of the Valar is non existent. Simple.

And so obvious I still wonder at it's constant inclusion by the scholars.

Is it not ironic that Men, the ones who according to OiE were abandoned by Eru, would be in the end, the instrument of the final defeat of Melkor and in the making of Arda Healed a thing greater than Arda Unmarred.

And would not these "instruments" not have been more effective had it not been "Proven" to them that Melkor was greater than Ilúvatar? Melkor Blotted out the Sun and darkened Arda, how then could Men see other than Melkor as the greatest. Doubt as to the power of Melkor did not come to Man until they entered Beleriand and saw the Elves defying Melkor with limited success. Had Melkor been prevented from showing himself to be so powerful would not the "Instruments of the creation of Arda Healed" not have been even better when they joined with the Eldar?

Had Ilúvatar been only a little more involved in Arda personally then I say that Men would have had even longer to exercise their freedom of choice within the confines and limits of Arda and been even better instruments for Arda Healed.

 

[baragund]

For my last post in this really interesting discussion, I’d like to address the comments by The Lord of the Balrogs in his last post of Sept. 30 and Anc's post from earlier this evening. In the process, I'll expand on my mad ramblings of Sept. 29 and provide some closing remarks.

Gothmog subtly rephrases the question at hand by asking if Iluvatar “…did enough to prepare his children for the trials and torments that would lead to them realizing their full potential.” This is a slight but important change in focus from the debate question, which is “Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?” This change in focus is important because of course Iluvatar could certainly have done more to prepare or protect his children just as parents in Real Life could always do more to prepare their children for life and shelter them from peril. However, just as parents can cross a line and become overprotective and provide such extensive guidance that the children cannot think and act on their own, so too would Iluvatar run the risk of his Children being over dependent on him and, hence, stunting their potential.

This ‘hands off’ approach applies particularly well to Men. There is a reason why The Voice did not provide a whole lot of detailed guidance to the Fathers of Men, and why they were told they had to learn things on their own. It was because of their Free Will! Using again the analogy of Real Life children, they frequently refuse to listen to their parents and the best lessons are the ones they learn themselves… the hard way. My father would frequently start a serious conversation with me when I was a teenager with “I wish I could put my old head on your young shoulders”, and like many typical teenagers, my eyes would just glaze over and I would tune him out. Boy! If I took to heart at the time one quarter of the wisdom being imparted to me, I would be sooo much better off today! I think there was a lot of the same thing going on with the Fathers of Men. Iluvatar understood he just had to let Men learn the hard lessons on their own.

Regarding Melkor, Gothmog makes a fascinating assertion that it is not a given that Iluvatar created Melkor for the purpose of being evil. This begs the question that if that was not Iluvatar’s intent, was Melkor some kind of monstrous mistake on the part of Iluvatar, who is supposed to be infallible? Talk about the baker messing up his first batch of cookies! I’m sorry to keep dragging out this quote from the Ainulindale but Iluvatar’s admonishment to Melkor that I referred to in my post of Sept. 25 addresses this issue quite well. Iluvatar basically tells Melkor that whatever he does, it is only a part of Iluvatar’s themes, and any of Melkor’s actions are simply Iluvatar’s “…instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” It seems to me that Iluvatar knew what he was doing when he created Melkor.

Now let’s talk about the degree of direct action made by Iluvatar himself and the involvement of the Valar that we Scholars so stubbornly keep returning to. The number of times Iluvatar interceded himself is really beside the point. Iluvatar operated on an ‘advise and consent’ basis and he allowed the offspring of his thought, the Valar, to run Arda under his guidance. Another analogy that strikes me as well suited for this situation is Iluvatar being like the CEO of a large corporation and the Valar are his staff. Now I think most of you taking part in this conversation have experience in the world of work, jobs, bosses, the 9-5 thing. How many of you liked working for a boss who was a micro-manager, the type of control freak who wouldn’t let you blow your nose without his/her review and approval? Or doing all of the work himself, leaving you feeling worthless? I’ve had one and it ain’t fun! It’s stifling and miserable, and it leaves you not caring about the quality of your work because you know the boss will redo it anyway no matter how much effort you put into it. The best kind of CEO is the one who truly delegates authority, and allows his staff to make mistakes but learn from them. He steps in directly only when the issue is something simply beyond the capabilities of his staff. So it was when Iluvatar had to remake Arda and separate it from Aman because of the uppity Numenoreans. The ‘advise and consent’ approach (otherwise considered to be the councils Manwe would take with Iluvatar) is a proven management technique.

In closing, I’d like to review the ‘Big Picture’ that is being offered by the two sides of this discussion. The Scholars are basically saying that the hands-off approach by Iluvatar was intentional and necessary in order for the Children to reach their full potential and properly implement the transformation from Arda Marred to Arda Healed, being a superior product compared to Arda Unmarred. It is a hard road the Children had to take but a necessary one so "...the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright...".

Our friends from Ost-in-Edhil give a kind of “would’ve, should’ve, could’ve” argument, describing the lack of direct involvement by Iluvatar, dismissing his advisory role to the Valar and how he could have reduced the degree of trials and torments of the Children in Arda Marred. But would this really have facilitated the transformation from Arda Marred to Arda Healed? I’m not sure. I think the final product would be more like Arda Unmarred.


I'm beat. I'm going to bed now.

 

[Maedhros]

posted by OiE
Consider for a moment, your own child, new to this world and ignorant of the evil that lurks within it. Do you allow them to grow up without your guidance, your teaching, your care and support? Do you send them out unwittingly and unprepared into a world fraught with traps and pitfalls without first seeking to prepare them?

This is of course not true in the case of Men. I think that my friends of OiE share the same views as the common reader of the Silmarillion. It would seem at first that Men were treated unfairly, but that is not so. Consider this:
Men are not bound to Arda as the Valar and Elves are. They have the power to shape their own destiny.
From The Published Silmarillion

' Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Men had the power to shape their life, regardless of the powers of the World, something that neither the Valar nor the Elves had.

posted by OiE
For even when Melkor comes among them, Ilúvatar offers no advice, no guidance, no warning of their peril. They are eager to learn and he shows them nothing. They seek to understand the world around them yet know nothing of what dangers lie in wait.

This is not true of course. Just look at the quote provided by OiE:

In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds.

Don’t you see, Men had that innate ability to do that. The things that they wished to make awoke in their own minds. Eru knew that Men had to find the answers from their questions by themselves because he had given them that ability.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod An Andreth

'Nay, tell me!' said Finrod. 'For if you do not know, how can we? But do you know that the Eldar say of Men that they look at no thing for itself; that if they study it, it is to discover something else; that if they love it, it is only (so it seems) because it reminds them of some other dearer thing? Yet with what is this comparison? Where are these other things?
'We are both, Elves and Men, in Arda and of Arda; and such knowledge as Men have is derived from Arda (or so it would appear). Whence then comes this memory that ye have with you, even before ye begin to learn?

posted by OiE
Who's Children are they that seek and yearn, thirst for knowledge to understand and grow? Who gave rise to the thoughts of Man? These thoughts arise before Melkor appears, these are the Children of Eru himself and yet he neglected them when they were most vulnerable. Is there not truth then in the words of Melkor?

Why did Eru neglected them? Because he didn’t give them the easy way? Have you ever wonder what would have happened if he did? Men would be unable to discover things, to seek the new, he would have hinder his gift to them. He would have killed their creativity and desire to learn and experience. Consider that you had a child who has a homework. You can either give him the answers, or you can allow your child to grow by giving him the tools that he needs to make the homework for himself. If you give the answers to your child, then he will be forever dependent upon you, and he will never cease to be a child. Do you really think that is what Ilúvatar intended for Men, to be forever children? Of course not.

posted by OiE
Surely he fathomed the minds of Men and saw the neglect, else why would he use such cunning words to tempt them in such a manner?
Then again, did Melkor not also know that Ilúvatar gifted Man with 'free-will?' Was this not a tool with which he was able to manipulate and devise his most heinous acts upon such unsuspecting prey? Melkor exploited Ilúvatar's inaction in Arda to devastating effect for much longer than was ever necessary.

Ilúvatar had given free will to all, not just Men. Men had free will. They knew that the voice of the One never threatened them or made them choose. They chose unwisely, but some of them left the service of Melkor and wandered away to the west.
It is interesting the much longer than was ever necessary remark. How does our friends from OiE know that? Should the Valar had kept Melkor imprisoned in Mandos forever then? Would that have been better for Arda in the End? No.
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta

Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

posted by OiE
This shows that Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to prove to Men that he was indeed Master. Ilúvatar could have, and should have, prevented the blotting out of the Sun. Then Melkor would have at the least have had to work much harder and Men would not have had what seems to be proof that Melkor was indeed the greater.

Are you sure that that would have made a difference. The excuse of OiE is that Men were ignorant and that is why they chose badly. Let me use another example in the legendarium. The Men of Númenórë. They had received instruction from the Valar, and lived in their island, they knew of Ilúvatar. They went to ME to battle Sauron and brought him back to their land. If the númenórëans had all of that knowledge, how is it possible that they were tricked by Sauron into worshipping Melkor. What is their excuse then? Ignorance? No. Men had free will and the ability to shape their fate, regardless of anything. In the case of Númenor, most of Men fell to the shadow but some of them, remained faithful, just like in the Tale of Adanel.

posted by OiE
And would not these "instruments" not have been more effective had it not been "Proven" to them that Melkor was greater than Ilúvatar? Melkor Blotted out the Sun and darkened Arda, how then could Men see other than Melkor as the greatest. Doubt as to the power of Melkor did not come to Man until they entered Beleriand and saw the Elves defying Melkor with limited success. Had Melkor been prevented from showing himself to be so powerful would not the "Instruments of the creation of Arda Healed" not have been even better when they joined with the Eldar?

Men are not fools. They wanted the easy way out. Had Ilúvatar ever threatened them? No. Could Men had chosen to abandon Melkor? Yes, and some of them did. That is exactly the thing that Ilúvatar was trying to teach them. They had the ability of learning by themselves, of growing, it would be slow, but it would be worth it. And that is exactly what happened in the end. Men with all of their troubles in the end became greater because of it. The difficulties did not destroyed them, only made them stronger. They stood up to the evil in the end of the F.A., and as Ilúvatar foretold, it is the seemingly instruments of Melkor, Men, who would in the End, make the world a much more greater place than it could ever be.

Have you wondered why my friends of OiE fail to post about the 3 concepts of Arda, and that Arda Healed, (Arda with the influence of Melkor redressed) would be better because of Men at the end of the World?
It makes me wonder.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I have copied this thread from the debate tournament, and cropped it of irrelevant posts.

Clearly, I would like to see it continue, as I think that much has gone unanswered and there are lots of arguments and potential routes to take! Everyone and anyone is welcome to participate!

 

[Arvedui]

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it

If Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda, then why did it take so long for him to 'rebuke' Manwë for not taking actions against Melkor sooner?
How much hurt did Ilúvatar's absence cause?
When Melkor captured, tortured and maimed a number of the Firstborn, where was Ilúvatar?
When spirits and Elves where transformed into Balrogs and Orcs, where was Ilúvatar?
When the Lamps where overthrown, where was Ilúvatar?

He surely wasn't involved in Arda.