Was Maeglin evil?

[Inderjit S]

Don't think Eol "kidnapped" her per se, he merely led her to his lair got her pregnant and forced her to stay there...by that logic many men are kidnappers But really, at first Aredhel enjoyed her life with Eol and was "not unwilling" though their relationship eventually became homicidal, of course, it didn't start of too badly.

 

[Snaga]

I think its pretty obvious that Eol's relationship with Aredhel was not healthy. He was a control freak, and he ended up murdering her. Eol was definitely insane. If you want to call him evil will be whether or not you like to label people as evil - but its pretty uncontroversial to say his actions were.

The whole thing about Maeglin is that its a case of like father like son, no? He is clearly unbalanced too, and after his upbringing that's no big shock. His relationship with Idril is also unhealthy, but the circumstances and Idril's reaction are different with more extreme consequences. Eol kills one, Maeglin betrays the whole of Gondolin. I guess if you label Eol as evil, Maeglin has to take the rap too.

In fact, I consider Maeglin to be worse. Eol's act is done out of wrath, and while despicable is the kind of domestic violence that is common but a small scale crime. Maeglin's act is a treasonous war crime. I accept that he was broken by torture, but did others of the Eldar fall like that?

 

[YayGollum]

Yes, a few. Anyways, Yay for others helping me out. No, I don't think that being kidnapped would be especially fun. Sure, I would easily write that kidnapping random elves isn't especially nice. The intentions weren't evil, though. I already explained that he kidnapped her because he figured that Noldor types were evil. I guess that falling in love with the lady allowed him to think of her as a bit better than your average Noldor type. Yes, he was a control freak. Always an easy type to despise, I have noticed, which doesn't mean that they can't have really nice intentions. As to the evil of not naming his kid, um, didn't he? Wasn't he the guy who came up with the name Maeglin, which actually seems like a pretty complimentary name, to myself. He just didn't name the kid immediately, which I would guess to be some crazy custom. I read no evidence to make me figure that not naming the kid was an evil inaction. Nor did I read any evidence that he wasn't saddened by his wife and kid running away to live with a bunch of evil Noldor types. Sure, the book mostly stuck with him being a bit angry, which is understandable, since he always thought that he was doing what was best.

 

[Inderjit S]

I guess the thing with "evil" Elves is that they are much more interesting than the boring "good" ones-I mean where would the Silmarillion be without the proud and somewhat arrogant Noldor? Feanor, his sons, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon...heck all the descendants of Finwe seem to be proud and arrogant, with the exception of Finarfin (yawn!) and Orodreth (he took orders from THINGOL and was seems to be over-awed by Turin!) and, I guess, to a certain extent Finrod, though he was far from boring and unlike Orodreth and Finarfin had a bit of fire in his belly. I mean, honestly, who on earth wants to read about the Vanyar singing songs of reverence to Manwe and Varda everyday? Plus you must remember that the actions of the Feanorians and other Noldor were tainted by the curse, oath and war...even the Feanorians were not too bad before the shadow spread over the Noldor (ALL of the Noldor mind you)-I guess the history is somewhat tragic, but exciting and interesting nonetheless.

But I think in terms of "evil Elves" Maeglin may have been a cut above the rest-he actually swore allegiance to Morgoth...

 

[Ingwë]

Of course noone wants to read about songs, beautiful places and dancing people. There are no authors that write that kind of books. There are no movies like that.
I agree that harmony is boring but all people, the characters in all books and movies try to reach harmony. All people want peace. But there is something that throws their like into confusion and they have to pass many test to reach the harmony again.
The books tell stories about the extraordinary people, the special people. So did Tolkien.

Nor did I read any evidence that he wasn't saddened by his wife and kid running away to live with a bunch of evil Noldor types.

Evil Noldor types? Well, evil or not, she wanted to go to her family. If he is a good husband and he loves her he will let her go. But as Snaga already mentioned, he was insane. Maybe it wasn't his fault, since he didn't contact the other world much. I also agree that Maeglin was like his father. Seems they're doomed to love and not to be loved That made them (father and son) evil.

Sure, the book mostly stuck with him being a bit angry, which is understandable, since he always thought that he was doing what was best.

Usually people think what they do it the best. Few ones realise what they do is not good. If a thief steals something, he thinks that is the best for him - he takes something and he doesn't pay, he doesn't work. But sometimes what we do is not the best. Keeping Aredhel against her will certainly wasn't the best and it leads to dead.


Edit: sorry for the non Tolkien-related post. I haven't read the books for a while and I don't remeber the details.

 

[YayGollum]

How was that a non Tolkien-related post? It looks like you were writing about characters that the Tolkien dude came up with. oh well. You write that if poor Eol was actually a good husband and in love with that Aredhel lady, that would let her run off whenever she felt like it, merely to hang out in an idyllic lap of luxury while ignoring all of the horrifyingly evil things that Noldor types regularly do. Uh, huh. What else is on your list of things that good husbands must do? I have never heard of this part of the list, at least. From what I can tell, he was actually paying attention to one thing that I figure should go on such a list ---> Protecting her from overly violent types. Sure, maybe he wouldn't have thought so badly of the Noldor types if he was more of an elf of the world and knew more about them than stories where they kill off a bunch of Teleri type elves. But he wasn't. oh well. He was doing the right thing, as far as he knew. What was worse? Eol attempting to protect his wife and kid from bad influences, or Aredhel whining and manipulating her kid just to get back to being pampered?

 

[Ingwë]

Then Thingol and the other Elves are wrong if they're friends to the Noldor and only Eol is right? Interesting

What was worse? Eol attempting to protect his wife and kid from bad influences, or Aredhel whining and manipulating her kid just to get back to being pampered?

Eol attenpting to keep his wife against her will is worst than Aredhel whining

 

[YayGollum]

Answering your first question ---> No, not so interesting. I'm with Eol. Never liked Thingol or his pathetic Sindarish flock. But then, how friendly were they with Noldor types? Not especially, and probably for the same reason that Eol wasn't a large fan of the Noldor types.

To your second bit ---> Hey, man, come on. You totally didn't answer the question the way I wanted you to. Fine. I'll edit the question ---> What's worse? ---> Eol grinding his teeth in aggravation at his wife's spoiled whining, being a control freak with good intentions, quietly as well as simply and unimposingly raising a family, and teaching his kid a useful trade and to be tolerant and appreciative of a weird race like Dwarves? Or ---> Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home (Oh! He'd have been worried sick!)?

 

[Ingwë]

Answering your first question ---> No, not so interesting. I'm with Eol. Never liked Thingol or his pathetic Sindarish flock. But then, how friendly were they with Noldor types? Not especially, and probably for the same reason that Eol wasn't a large fan of the Noldor types.

But most of the Sindar are friends of thr Noldor anyway. If all people follow an idea it doesn't mean it is right, of course, and maybe Eol had good reason to live isolated. It is true that the Noldor brought disaster and destruction to Beleriand, but Morgoth had already settled in Middle earth, so the war was inevitable. The Elves cannot overthrow the Enemy while they're separated and the Sindar realised it. There is no good reason for them to argue or fight each other. So my opinion is they have to be friends and Noldor are not evil and Sindar are not stupid. But how friendly were the Noldor? - Not all of them were friendly. I would say they were arrogant. And I think Thingol is arrogant, too, but the reason you keep someone against his/her will cannot be that you don't like the others.

To your second bit ---> Hey, man, come on. You totally didn't answer the question the way I wanted you to. Fine. I'll edit the question ---> What's worse? ---> Eol grinding his teeth in aggravation at his wife's spoiled whining, being a control freak with good intentions, quietly as well as simply and unimposingly raising a family, and teaching his kid a useful trade and to be tolerant and appreciative of a weird race like Dwarves? Or ---> Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home (Oh! He'd have been worried sick!)?

The way you ask the question the answer is Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home. Certainly it is worse
But I don't think that is true. She didn't turn Maeglin against his father. The life in Gondolin was better, living isolated is not good for a yound child, he needed other contacts. Otherwise he would turn to evil, but certainly not the way he did. The boy deserved to see more things than his hourse and the lands around.
And about the note... Come on She wanted to escape and probably she wanted to do this unnoticed

 

[Grond]

But most of the Sindar are friends of thr Noldor anyway...

And of which people of the Sindar are you speaking??? Thingol despised and distrusted Feanor and his sons and had little use for Fingolfin or any of the others. All in all the Sindar and Noldor coexisted somewhat peacefully but I wouldn't say friendship existed between the two peoples.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Ithrynluin]

And of which people of the Sindar are you speaking??? Thingol despised and distrusted Feanor and his sons and had little use for Fingolfin or any of the others. All in all the Sindar and Noldor coexisted somewhat peacefully but I wouldn't say friendship existed between the two peoples.

Cheers,

grond

Wasn't there great friendship between Finwe and Elwe/Olwe?

And Finrod's dealings with Cirdan were more than amiable also.

Sindarin and Noldorin Elves lived together in Hithlum. IIRC, both the Noldor and Sindar leaders swear oaths of friendship, and the Noldor even take up Sindarin to bring them closer to their Sindarin brethren.

The two peoples mingled under Turgon's rule in Nevrast and later went to Gondolin together.

Therefore, I'd say there was indeed friendship between them, Thingol being the sole exception.

 

[YayGollum]

I agree that it would have made all kinds of sense for Noldorish as well as Sindarish types to get along all of the time. Why not? Too bad that it didn't happen often enough. Anyways, yes, Eol didn't like the Noldor types. He was thinking stereotypically. Yes, that is a bit evil, but the stereotype that he had pinned to them was rooted in sensible caution. At least he wasn't the sort to kill large groups of people who annoyed him.

Also, how did Aredhel not turn Maeglin against his not-so-adept-at-social-rituals father? She might have had great reasons for doing something evil, but she still intentionally manipulated the kid. Maybe even thinking mostly of the kid's welfare. I don't know. Tolkien doesn't go into much detail on her intentions, from what I have read. I gots to point out that different elves have different tastes.

You write that life in Gondolin (where, even if you aren't someone who's job requires him to work outside of the place and have to be plenty careful about secrecy, the Enemy might just catch you and mess with your brain, since he's always on the lookout for that hiding spot) is better than life at Eol's place. Certainly to the superly spoiled Aredhel. I'd need all kinds of parameters to decide on which place was somehow better.

Is living isolated not good for a child? I am not an expert on child rearing. Most children raised in especially isolated places turn out to be evil? Hm. At this point, I wish that I was an amazing history expert, to point out the many popularly seen as great humans who grew up in mostly isolated spots. I see no evidence that the kid's old stomping grounds turned him evil. The only ones that I know that he hung out with were his parents, some servants, and some Dwarves, who are always great examples, known for being untaintable by evil.

 

[Confusticated]

Maybe some could understand the level of resentment and jealousy that Maeglin must have endured. But he attempted to kill a young child, and belonging to the one he was supposed to love. I am sorry but if anyone was ever evil it was him. Or if he was not evil, then was any elf or man? Then no, I think.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Yes, but he was tortured too. Are people born evil, or do they have evil thrust upon them? To his core, I do not think Maeglin was evil. I mean, look at people who go on shooting sprees- they often are the victim of hate and ignorance, and one day just snap (not every single time but often). Who is the evil one in such cases? The ones who made the people so twisted, or the ones who actually performed the deed?

 

[Confusticated]

I don't think he was born evil it all. I don't think he was evil until his love was rejected and this just devoured everything that was good inside of him until no good remained... and in the end I think he embraced his evilness, deciding to direct it at others instead of just letting it make him suffer any longer.

 

[Mimzy]

To an extent, i mean yeah he did horrible things, but he also had a horrible upbringing. i mean he was the product of rape!

 

[Elf of cave]

Socrates once said: "From the deepest desires often come the deadliest hate."

I think Maeglin is the embodiment of that quote.

 

[Mimzy]

I've noticed that Tolkien uses the pattern of Elves who experience parental bereavement or abuse becoming evil. Actually, the case of Eol and Aredhel is the only example of some certain kinds of 'human' evil Tolkien wrote about in the Elvish world. I think the whole situation was ultimately the result of Feanor's oath, but what Eol did was almost rape and that seems very uncommon in the Elvish society.

I'm sure the death of Maeglin's parents later eventually effed him up too. Even though Maeglin didn't care much for his father, he probably did naturally resent Turgon to some extent for executing him?

I would say yes, he was evil to some extent, as not everyone in his situation would have done the bad things he did. But I wouldn't say he was without love. I think he really did love Idril, though it was a selfish and pathological love.

 

[panzer71]

I believe he was evil. He betrayed an entire city to gain what he could not have.Maeglin may not have been born evil but niether was Melkor.

 

[Prince of Cats]

Maeglin may not have been born evil but niether was Melkor.

Great Point! Welcome to the forum :*up