Was the Council of 🧝Elrond a Farce?

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Gothmog
So if the decisions as to the path of the Ring and the make-up of the Fellowship is down to the intervention of 'Higher Powers' then this proves that the Council played no real part and therefore was a farce and that even Elrond did little of note as others told him what to do and say.

Frodo did not have to accept the task that was appointed to him. The Free Peoples did not have to "play along" with whatever force it was that gave them the opportunity to destroy the ring.



Analogy: (NOT an allegory!!)

You are completely broke, hungry, and homeless.

Fate (ie God or the Gods-- whatever) has so ordered things that you have an opportunity to win the Lottery. All you have to do is drive to a certain state and buy a ticket.

However you don't know all the facts. Fate has brought about a "coincidental" meeting between you and 2 old college buddies of yours. After talking for a few hours at a diner, you all realize you have this incredibly opportunity.

One of your friends offers to loan you his car. The other gives you enough gas money to make it to the state so you can buy your ticket.

At the end of the meeting you have all decided together what to do. You set off the next morning to go get your ticket.

The End



In this example, you don't have to go-- and your friends are free to decide you're crazy. They don't have to help you.

But you all choose to cooperate with Fate.

And you live happily ever after with your millions of dollars.

Is this a farce? Has Fate compromised your free will in this scenario?

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ancalagon

Why is this? Why does Iluvatar not take a more active interest in his creation? Is it because he is not responsible for providence within Arda but the Valar are. What goes on within the confines of Arda is the responsiblity of the Valar, this is their creation, their responsibility and their purpose.

It is because to Iluvatar, the separation between himself and his creations is superficial. The active interest of all of the 'other actors' in Ea IS the interest of Iluvatar at work. He is entirely responsible for all that occurs within Arda.

Basically -- playing hide and seek with himself.

That's how I feel about the matter.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Frodo did not have to accept the task that was appointed to him. The Free Peoples did not have to "play along" with whatever force it was that gave them the opportunity to destroy the ring.



Analogy: (NOT an allegory!!)

You are completely broke, hungry, and homeless.

Fate (ie God or the Gods-- whatever) has so ordered things that you have an opportunity to win the Lottery. All you have to do is drive to a certain state and buy a ticket.

However you don't know all the facts. Fate has brought about a "coincidental" meeting between you and 2 old college buddies of yours. After talking for a few hours at a diner, you all realize you have this incredibly opportunity.

One of your friends offers to loan you his car. The other gives you enough gas money to make it to the state so you can buy your ticket.

At the end of the meeting you have all decided together what to do. You set off the next morning to go get your ticket.

The End



In this example, you don't have to go-- and your friends are free to decide you're crazy. They don't have to help you.

But you all choose to cooperate with Fate.

And you live happily ever after with your millions of dollars.

Is this a farce? Has Fate compromised your free will in this scenario?

So in what way does this change the view that the Council was a Farce?

Elrond and Gandalf could have talked to the Fellowship without the extras who played no part.The messengers from the other peoples could have been sent back with the same information in less time as they were only asking for Elronds' opinion. The "Free Peoples" had little choice as to 'Playing along' as they were largely ignored in the case of the Ring. Elrond sent the Fellowship to do as He wanted, Galadriel was a ring user and involved in the same way as Elrond and so help the fellowship along the same path. Denethor refused to 'Play Along' but was prevented from getting his hands on the Ring. Faramir, as an individual decided to help the quest and went against his lord and father. Fangorn was not at the council and had no news from it. As for the rest, their choice was to fight against Sauron or for him.

But other than that, if you claim 'divine intervention' for the choices then the Council served no purpose. If those involved used whatever 'Free Will' (limited choice) to say either yes or no, then this is still nothing to do with the Council. they would have had exactly the choice presented to them in any case. "Devine Intervention" would have seen to that at the very least.

 

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Gothmog
But other than that, if you claim 'divine intervention' for the choices then the Council served no purpose. If those involved used whatever 'Free Will' (limited choice) to say either yes or no, then this is still nothing to do with the Council. they would have had exactly the choice presented to them in any case. "Devine Intervention" would have seen to that at the very least.

God/Fate/Whatever did not make anybody at the CoE do anything.

G/F/W called representatives to the council, chose Frodo and appointed the task of destroying the ring to him. Everyone was free to laugh Frodo back into the Shire-- and Frodo was free to wimp out.

CoE marked a great turning point in the history of ME. All battles fought before that were merely the "long defeat." Everything changed after the CoE.

CoE is, as far as I can tell, the most significant debate in the entire history of the Children of Iluvatar.

(Let's keep this in perspective here: the Divine Intervention that is alluded to in this scene is much subdued compared to what happened to Elwing and Earendil....)

 

[Gothmog]

No the Council of Elrond was nothing more than a History lesson from Elrond and Gandalf Explaining to FRODO why he did not turn up a promised. Since this is true it could have been done without the Council. And the 'Great Turning Point' was Frodo accepting the Burden of the Ring. I have never said that any were forced into doing anything, however, coercion of any discription from any where, divine intervention, Gandalf, or silence, is a form of force. The fact that Frodo could have said no is not in dispute. What is in dispute is how valuable was the Council. In my opinion not very.

It was not me who brought up the idea of 'Devine Intervention' so I can hardly be blamed for answering.

 

[Ancalagon]

CoE is, as far as I can tell, the most significant debate in the entire history of the Children of Iluvatar.

Hmmm, sort of like the Last Supper?

 

[Turgon]

Sorry I just don't understand this whole 'The Council of Elrond was a Farce' thing.

By Gothmog
Basically it was nothing more than a Talking-shop...

Um, basically that's what a council is... people get together and discuss what's going on and what needs to be done (usually a council will be fairly representative of the people - in this case Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Men) - that's what happened right?

 

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Hmmm, sort of like the Last Supper?

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Turgon
Sorry I just don't understand this whole 'The Council of Elrond was a Farce' thing.

Um, basically that's what a council is... people get together and discuss what's going on and what needs to be done (usually a council will be fairly representative of the people - in this case Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Men) - that's what happened right?

Yes and all the decisions were made either before or after the Council with the exception of Frodo accepting the Quest of the Ring. And this could have been done without the Council. Therefore it achieved nothing. Elrond gave a history lesson to all who cared to hear, and Gandalf told Frodo why he was late. What was to be done with the Ring was decided long before and the make-up of the Fellowship was decided after, Very little of import happened at.

 

[Turgon]

By Gothmog
Yes and all the decisions were made either before or after the Council with the exception of Frodo accepting the Quest of the Ring. And this could have been done without the Council. Therefore it achieved nothing. Elrond gave a history lesson to all who cared to hear, and Gandalf told Frodo why he was late. What was to be done with the Ring was decided long before and the make-up of the Fellowship was decided after, Very little of import happened at.

Sound like a council meeting to me...

 

[Ancalagon]

What's that supposed to mean?

Well the gathering of the Fellowship, prior to Frodo going off to sacrifice himself for the good of mankind, whose age it now was. Of course all this being directed by Iluvatar, who himself had a plan, and then there is Boromir, as good as Judas really.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Turgon

Sound like a council meeting to me...

I thank you for agreeing with me A Farce.

 

[Turgon]

Seriously though - I think the important thing about the CoE was that representatives of all the Free Peoples of ME did get together and discuss what was going on... Elrond deciding things behind closed doors doesn't make any sense... it's not the way the he worked... to say it was just a history lesson is missing the point... for the most part when the free people worked together they worked 'Democratically' for want of a better word... The White Council is a prime example... the titular head was Saruman - but everybody had input at the council... What would Dain or Thranduil have said if when their representatives came back and told them that Elrond wouldn't speak to them because he was locked in his study with a wizard and a couple of Hobbits? Wouldn't be too pleased I imagine. When a leader makes a monumentous decicion as Elrond had to, he would be wise to learn all the facts - get as many opinions as possible and then decide...

 

[Ancalagon]

What exactly was Elronds monumental decision?

 

[Gothmog]

How many decisions were made at the council? there was one, Frodo's. Elrond countered all paths for the Ring exept it's traveling to Mordor to be destroyed. This he did because the decision was made before the Council. The companions of the Ring-barer with the exception of Sam, who no body could have stopped, was decided After.

 

[Turgon]

You've got to see the bigger picture here people... What would have happened without the council? Dain and Thranduil would be totally uninformed as to what was really going on in ME...
'What do you mean Saruman is traitor... I've just sent him two legions of crack troops in an effort to end the ent menace once and for all...'
Do you not think the decisions made after the council were based upon what was heard at the council...
... how do you make informed decisions without knowing the facts? I'm fascinated guys... how do avoid the 'farcical' nature of decision making and still keep everyone envolved and informed... I'm sure the world is dying to know... it would change the course of politics forever...

 

[Goro Shimura]

A dwarf showing up to warn Bilbo that a Black Riderish character has been been inquiring about him and his ring...

An elf showing up it let everyone know that Gollum's loose...

Boromir showing up to try to find the answer to his dream...

Aragorn announcing that it's time for him to reforge Isildur's sword...

Gandalf showing up to let everyone know about why he was missing for a while and also to break the news about Saruman's treachery...

Elrond telling the history of the One ring and what it's significance was...

Bilbo telling how he found it...

Frodo telling about his trip to Rivendale...


Maybe they should have made decisions without sharing all of this information first.

 

[Wonko The Sane]

Dear Garthmog,

***Editted by Beorn***
I can't believe you'd dis on Elrond like that.
First of all he's totally bad ***Editted by Beorn*** what with his whole "Mr. Anderson" thing.
And plus he's an elf. And all elves are sexy.
So this council thingy wasn't a farce...or even fake! It was 1) A good chance to put a lot of sexy elves in the same room.
2) A good chance for Gimli and Legolas to fight
3) A good chance to hear Aragorn go "Sit down, Legolas" (Ha! I laugh every time.)
And 4) A good chance to put a lot of sexy elves in the same room.

P.S.- Do you think Legolas would marry me? *licks lips*

 

[Walter]

I tend to see the CoE as one of the most important Chapters in the LotR for several reasons:

1) On his attempt to write a successor for "The Hobbit" this was as far as JRRT would get before reaching some sort of dead-end which was sometime in 1938 methinks. Until then it was a "Hobbit-story" - even Strider, who's name was "Trotter" by that time, was a hobbit, though oddly for a hobbit he was wearing shoes - but Tolkien didn't seem quite satisfied with it. So he did what he used to do on such occasions: He started to turn the story over and ended up rewriting almost everything. By 1939 he no longer wanted a successor for "The Hobbit" but rather a successor of the book that turned out to be the "Silmarillion" much later.

2) The various participants of the CoE got to know the current status-quo on either side, it became clear that the ring had to be destroyed, sending it to the West was no longer a serious option and the participants realized that there was an urgent need to join their forces if their attempt to overthrow Sauron should have some slight chance of success.

3) Last and most important: The reader is provided with all the necessary background information s/he is missing so far - historical information which hadn't been necessary in the story for a successor of The Hobbit - and without which a deeper understanding of the - now new - story would not be possible, and Tolkien could give that without having to make even more changes to the story so far....

 

[Wonko The Sane]

The CoE, as most have said, provided necessary background for those who 1) Did not read The Hobbit, the Silmarillion, etc. 2) Had no prior knowledge of what went on to bring the ring to Bilbo and consequently Frodo 3) To further explain the significance of the ring which was heretofore unknown other than the history of it given by Gandalf in the beginning of the FotR, and 4) To refresh the memory of anyone who had gone a long time between reading The Hobbit and LotR as I had.
I think it was purely logistical from a writing standpoint.
Plus it works because it plays into Elrond's image as the knower of all.