Were Gildor and the 🧝Elves on Their Way Out of Middle Earth?

[LordOfMoria]

When Frodo, Sam, and Pippin leave for Buckland, they encounter the elves and the leader elf, Gildor.
I do not recall the book saying from what part they were from. or where they were going! Who can answer this? I think they were leaving middle earth but I am not sure

 

[Mablung]

He was a Noldor and they were leaving ME I believe beyond that there isn't much else.

 

[Confusticated]

They were just tarrying for awhile before leaving Middle-earth. Gildor says that some of their kin remained in Rivendell... so I assume that these elves where from Rivendell. Gildor is at the Havens at the end of the book, I assume that him and the rest of his group leave Middle-earth when Frodo does.

 

[LordOfMoria]

He said he was from the House of Finrod. Where is that?

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by LordOfMoria
He said he was from the House of Finrod. Where is that?

The House of Finrod is not a place. I assume that this means that he was related to Finrod, or at least lived in the Kingdom that Finrod ruled. Finrod was a great elf that died in the first age.

The family and history of Gildor is not known, and as far as I know the only thing known about him is told in the Lord of The Rings. He was a Noldo exile, of the house Finrod (whatever that might mean) and he was the leader of a company of exiles.

You might want to read this thread about Gildor:
The House of Finrod

 

[Beleg]

*He was a Noldo exile, of the house Finrod (whatever that might mean) and he was the leader of a company of exiles.*

References from Sil sure do create confusion. He was a High Elf. But This is kind of strange for High Elves gernally dont go out in woods singing and doing such things. Nor do they travel a lot. But perhaps As Felagund, (Finrod) was one of the eagerest Noldo Travelers his house also followed him. This leads to a question whether the whole company was Noldo? i highly doubt that.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
*He was a Noldo exile, of the house Finrod (whatever that might mean) and he was the leader of a company of exiles.*

References from Sil sure do create confusion. He was a High Elf. But This is kind of strange for High Elves gernally dont go out in woods singing and doing such things. Nor do they travel a lot. But perhaps As Felagund, (Finrod) was one of the eagerest Noldo Travelers his house also followed him. This leads to a question whether the whole company was Noldo? i highly doubt that.

The only confusing I see resulting from the information in The Silmarillion is that surrounding "the house of Finrod". What gives you the idea that Noldor would not be traveling through the woods? Gildor says of his group that they are exiles tarrying awhile before they return over the sea.
Sounds like Noldor to me. What other interpretation could there be? It could be that the entire group were not Noldor, but I have to think that at least most, and probably all of them, were.

Maybe Gildor had some Teleri in him... that would easily explain why he tarried on the way to Aman .

 

[Beleg]

What gives you the idea that Noldor would not be traveling through

traveling through the woods

Perhaps that's the image that my mind has set for Noldor's. High and Mighty paying more attention towards Erradicating every small and big evil, then having a good night's fun At Woody End.
Somehow i can't in my minds eye imagine Feanor, singing merrily among the Grey-Elves. but perhaps years in ME have given them Wisdom and have taught them the value of .....? Sorry bout the raving. Its late night and me is absorbed in the World Cup Opening Ceremony.

 

[Cian]

Tolkien explains (in RGEO, published in JRRTs lifetime) that Gildor and his companions appear to have been going eastward, and were Elves '... living in or near Rivendell' returning from the Tower Hills.

I see no problem with High-elves singing and making merry ~ and that's exactly what they did!

¤

 

[Link]

but remember.

Finrod was the King of his house.

His house was he and his siblings.

I can't remember his brothers' names but I know his sister was Galadriel.

They were all the children of Finarfin.

So, one of Finrod's siblings could have had children, but Finrod would still rule that house.

Glorfindel, was also of Finarfin's house through Finrod somehow, it could perhaps be that Gildor and Glorfindel were from the same family..

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Link
but remember.

Finrod was the King of his house.

His house was he and his siblings.

I can't remember his brothers' names but I know his sister was Galadriel.

They were all the children of Finarfin.

So, one of Finrod's siblings could have had children, but Finrod would still rule that house.

Glorfindel, was also of Finarfin's house through Finrod somehow, it could perhaps be that Gildor and Glorfindel were from the same family..

Glorfindel was of Finarfin's house, and this through Finrod? How do you figure? Is this said somewhere?


"His house was he and his siblings" - Will you explain more about that?

I am unclear about "houses" in General. I would say/assume that perhaps Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod, Orodreth and Galadriel where of the House of Finarfin, if anything. Based on the published Silmarillion, that is. Maybe someone can clear things up regarding houses.

By your reasoning about Finrod's sibling's children, Celebrien would be of the House of Finrod, so would Findiulas (she may well be?), also Gil-galad according to later writings (but that's getting too complex for me yet, just had to throw it in since I just read it tonight).

As for Glorfindel and Gildor being related, as far as I know (which isn't too far) there is nothing to prove or disprove it, but one who knows enough might think it very unlikley or likely?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
Gildor is at the Havens at the end of the book, I assume that him and the rest of his group leave Middle-earth when Frodo does.

He is? I don't remember reading that.

 

[Confusticated]

Actually it is not outright stated that he was at the Grey Havens. My mistake.

Frodo and Sam halted and sat silent in the soft shadows, until they saw a shimmer as the travellers came towards them. There was Gildor and many fair Elven folk; and there to Sam's wonder rode Elrond and Galadriel.

That is said when Frodo and Sam encounter everyone in the Shire before moving on to the Grey Havens. I see no reason to think that Gildor would have deviated from that group before they sailed away, especially considering what he had said earlier about returning over the Great Sea.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nom
I am unclear about "houses" in General. I would say/assume that perhaps Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod, Orodreth and Galadriel where of the House of Finarfin, if anything. Based on the published Silmarillion, that is. Maybe someone can clear things up regarding houses.

Tolkien seems to use the term "house" with two different meanings interchangeably. One meaning is the family of the person of the title i.e. siblings and generally descendants of blood. The other meaning is the Kingdom of the person i.e. all the folk that follow him. So, the House of H¨²rin probably refers to his siblings and wife (which ended with their death) and the House of Hador refers to all the Edain of this house, most of whom were not directly related with Hador.
When Tolkien uses the one and when the other is some times obscure. Is the meaning of Gildor being of the House of Finrod (which we know, may mean Finarfin), related with the first or second use of the term? E.g. maybe Angrod had a son from whom Gildor descended. But more probable is that this is the second and general meaning. Who knows?

 

[Confusticated]

What I am unclear on is how exactly it is used for relatives. For example, wouldn't a set of siblings be said to be of the house of their father, or perhaps his father, rather than of the house of their sibling? Galadriel - House of Finarfin, yes? Not House of Finrod, Aegnor, or Angrod, right?
In this sense of the word house, could an elf be of more than one house? Could we say that Finrod is of the house of Finarfin, and also of the House of Finwe? Is there any cases of this being done - Tolkien putting an elf in more than one house?
If it is not done - then what determines an elf's house? When would it be that of their father, and when would it be a more distant relation?
Of all the known cases of elves and houses, which is the most distant relation between an elf and the person who's house he is of?

If it does refer to the first meaning, either Finrod Felagund or Finarfin, the relation would have to be distant, yes?
The latest idea was that Orodreth was the son of Angrod (see PoME, XI, The Parentage of Gil-galad), and that Finrod, and Aegnor had no children, yes?
Is it said anywhere that Orodreth did not have any children other than those who are named?

Can we rule out the possability of Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin?

I get the impression that Gildor had been to Aman, so would have to have been born there. Is there any room for Angrod to have had a son, Gildor Inglorion, while in Aman? Is there room for Gildor to have been born in Middle-earth?

If Gildor lived in Rivendell, and I think it likely that he did, wouldn't he say that he was of the House of Elrond had this been the second meaning of "house"?

 

[Beleg]

I think you are taking the meaning implied of House in the Quote about Gildor too literary. Literary a Elf can be of two Houses.
Like Turin can belong both to the house of Hurin and Hador. House here means the Children (or their family) blood relations. Hador would have blood relation with both Turin and Hurin so both are part of his house.
As for Gildor, I suggest that the meaning of House implied means Belonging to the Group of People that came under the Captainship of Finrod, and were distant or near relatives of Finrod.

 

[Lantarion]

I've understood that if one is of such a House, eg. the House of Haleth, the name of the House is that of the person who started it. Hador did great feats of strength and valour, and so his descendants after him were of his House. Haleth lead the great troop of Men into Brethil, and so those who followed her are of her House.
But I don't think that you had to be a blood relative of the initiator of the House to be included in it; if you dwell where existing members of the House dwell, or follow the existing House members (who would have probably been friends, relatives and followers of the initiator) you are of that House.

 

[gate7ole]

If Gildor lived in Rivendell, and I think it likely that he did, wouldn't he say that he was of the House of Elrond had this been the second meaning of “house”?

Well, we can suppose that the Elves were proud of their ancestry and kept the title of the first house they belonged to. Gildor might have become a member of the “House of Elrond”, but he still remembered his origins and declared that he was of the “House of Finrod”.

The latest idea was that Orodreth was the son of Angrod (see HoME, XI, The Parentage of Gil-galad), and that Finrod, and Aegnor had no children, yes?
Is it said anywhere that Orodreth did not have any children other than those who are named?

This is a completely different subject, but since you mentioned it… Tolkien decided to change completely the lineage of Gil-Galad and make him descendant of the House of Finarfin (Orodreth’s son). Of course, Christopher Tolkien did not add this change to the published Simlarillion, because too many changes should be needed to keep the consistence. Anyway, why did Tolkien choose to do so? Is it that Turgon being declared High-King (instead of Gil-Galad) didn’t agree with the “proper” inheritance of the title to the son of the latest High-King?

 

[Confusticated]

But I was asking if there is any chance that Gildor could have descended from Angrod.

Or if not that, how about just from Finarfin?

Is there any reason to think that Gildor might not have been born in Aman?

Any chance that a son of Finarfin (which would pretty much have to be Angrod, not Aegnor or Finrod, right?) coud have had the son Gildor before coming to Middle-earth?


I don't think that Gildor is a descendant of Finarfin. I think he may have come to Middle-earth in the host of Fingolfin, being of no special relation to Felagund or Finarfin. I think that Tolkien might have been thinking something more specific, a relation to Finarfin, when he wrote about Gildor, but I HATE to say what Tolkien even might have been thinking, so this is not my belief, it is a guess about something that I am willing to admit might have been the case, but might not.

by gate7ole

Well, we can suppose that the Elves were proud of their ancestry and kept the title of the first house they belonged to. Gildor might have become a member of the “House of Elrond”, but he still remembered his origins and declared that he was of the “House of Finrod”.

That is what I suppose, are there any other cases of this happening?

by gate7ole

This is a completely different subject, but since you mentioned it…

You bring up the example of a possability of Gildor descending from Angrod, furthermore any descent from Finarfin, it seems, would have to have been through Angrod since Finrod had no children (yes?), Aegnor was not married and according to his brother - never would be married, (this is the last word on it, yes???no??) and then you say that the subject of Tolkien's latest ideas about the family tree of Angrod is a completely different subject, but since I mentioned it...

...Why?

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nóm
Is there any reason to think that Gildor might not have been born in Aman?

No. Actually, since he is considered High-Elf, he most probably was born in Aman (rejecting the hereditary state of being a High-Elf).

You bring up the example of a possability of Gildor descending from Angrod, furthermore any descent from Finarfin, it seems, would have to have been through Angrod since Finrod had no children (yes?), Aegnor was not married and according to his brother - never would be married, (this is the last word on it, yes???no??) and then you say that the subject of Tolkien's latest ideas about the family tree of Angrod is a completely different subject, but since I mentioned it...

...Why?

I was misunderstood. The completely different subject is the lineage of Gil-Galad and the making of Orodreth son of Angrod. That is, I brought an irrelevant subject to the thread, not you.

And about all your questions, I don't have any answers. I can only speculate. But I guess, you can also do this without my help. Sorry, but Gildor is an unsolved riddle.