What are the 5 armies in the Hobbit?

[esrbl]

1. Elves
2. Dwarves
3. Men

Which are the 4th and the 5th armies in the Hobbit?

 

[Aldarion]

1. Elves
2. Dwarves
3. Men
4. Goblins
5. Eagles

And of course, 6. Beorn, but since he is human he counts under 3rd army.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

The eagles are not counted as an army in that tale. The opposing forces were a Goblin and a Wolves army with whom they were in league.

 

[TrackerOrc]

That's interesting. I've always thought that the Goblins and Wargs counted as one. Been a while since I've read the chapter, but I seem to remember the Eagles coming in very late, which would definitely count against them as the Fifth Army.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

True enough, TrackerOrc (and Aldarion); me too I have been wondering why they did not count as well, given their large numbers. I "could" have a suggestion, for what it be worth. It's about what eagles do: they are ... flying.

The word "army" supposes "boots-on-the-ground": the classic "trinity" so to speak (infantry, artillery, cavalry). Referring to World War 2, no history book would refer to the Luftwaffe, the RAF or other air forces as an "army", no matter how much such forces influenced the outcome of war neither then nor now.

The eagles were flying... no boots. My reasoning ends there and it is admittedly a bit weak.

 

[Olorgando]

Perhaps this helps. In chapter 6 of TH, "Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire", JRRT states "The Wargs and the goblins often helped one another in wicked deeds." Still very much conventional fairy-tale territory, with evil wolves having a language and forming alliances. This is not yet the Warg-rider Orcs of Isengard territory of TTT (or TH the film).

 

[TrackerOrc]

I think what always made me believe the Goblins and Wargs to be one, ties in with Merroes' point about the Eagles not being boots-on-the-ground; although Wolves hunt in packs and obviously have some structure in that way, I don't think I ever saw them as being organised militarily - they still have a wildness about them.
Plus, I think the notion of the Orcs actually riding Wargs always had me believing that they were intrinsically bound up with the Orcs, even perhaps in a very subservient role, and not being too independent; though this may be projection backwards from the later books.

 

[Olorgando]

TH does run against some things JRRT had written earlier for The Sil, with wolves being specifically associated with Morgoth and Sauron, though Draugluin and his ilk were said to be werewolves, while Carcharoth, though Draugluin is said to be hi sire, appears to be more nearly a "normal" wolf, if of gigantic size and demonic ferocity.
In TTT, JRRT does not make as much of Orc Warg-riders, I seem to recall that they seemed to function more like "cavalry" scouts rather than a compact attacking force. In the film, the attack on those heading for Helm's Deep by Warg-riders (and Aragorn's spill over the edge and all that baloney) are purely a product of PJ's fantasy. Then again, those Wargs looked almost more like bears, or more properly hyenas, than proper wolves in LoTR the film. Their looks "improved" in TH - as did those of the Eagles; in RoTK the Eagles seemed to me to be overblown hawks. But that whole Warg-rider bit was also blown all out of proportion in the TH films, and never mind that Azog, main baddie of these films, has "really" been dead for 142 years, having been killed by the then young (for a Dwarf) Dáin Ironfoot at the climactic bottle of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, The Battle of Azanulbizar before the east-gate of Moria in 2799 Third Age.

As I mentioned above, JRRT was still working the conventional fairy-tale formula here, which he was to reject quite firmly fairly soon after in his lecture "On Fairy-stories".
Besides the Wargs, the Eagles also speak, Beorn's animals can serve like waiters at the table …

... Referring to World War 2, no history book would refer to the Luftwaffe, the RAF or other air forces as an "army", no matter how much such forces influenced the outcome of war neither then nor now.

Well, actually, what is now the USAF was called the USAAF - the second A stands for "Army" - until the end of WW II. And the US Navy and Marines retain their airborne forces as an integral part to this day.

But more importantly, the Eagle would not be called an army because they were not from the start really allied with any side (though they definitely did not like Orcs and hunted them at other times, too). The Orcs and Wargs were allies on one side, while the Dwarves decided to forego an attack on the Elves and Men beleaguering Erebor, and to join them as their far more natural allies, when faced with beyond-a-doubt enemies. The Eagles were in a way, as Treebeard said about the Ents, not really on anybody's side, as nobody was really on their side. They were not to be counted on, but did have a habit of taking sides on short notice, as they also did before the Black Gate, when they felt that one side was definitely the one to support against the other.

 

[TrackerOrc]

It's funny how we can all have different interpretations of things in the books; I've always felt that the Eagles have a definite relationship with Gandalf, and would therefore definitely be on his side, so to speak. I wouldn't ever suggest that they were in any way subservient, but I've always felt that they were ready and able to help Gandalf (and obviously do just that on several occasions). Not suggesting that there was any sort of concrete alliance, but that there was a definite partnership of equals, almost?

 

[Deleted member 12094]

I've always felt that the Eagles have a definite relationship with Gandalf, and would therefore definitely be on his side, so to speak.

Quite true. The eagles were long befriended with the Elves in previous Ages as mentioned in TS; as regards Gwaihir, a personal relationship with Gandalf is explained in Tyler's "Companion" as follows:

Gwaihir the Windlord – Lord of the Great Eagles of the Misty Mountains, a descendant of Thorondir. He became a friend of Gandalf the Grey when the Wizard healed him of a poisoned wound (probably caused by an orc-arrow). Several times in the closing years of the Third Age, Gwaihir repaid this debt: during the War of the Ring the Eagles, led by Gwaihir and his brother Landroval, assisted Gandalf and the Free Peoples many times.​

Actually, I searched for Tyler's information source for this but could not find it...!?

 

[Olorgando]

That bit about the arrow is in TH, chapter 6 "Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire", when Gandalf, the Dwarves and Bilbo have all been brought to a "... wide shelf of rock on the mountain-side. .... The wizard and the eagle-lord [not yet named Gwaihir] appeared to know one another slightly, and even to be on friendly terms. [this would seem to be how it appeared to Bilbo? because then follows:] As a matter of fact Gandalf, who had often been in the mountains, had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound."

So an arrow-wound, yes, but no mention of it being poisoned or being specifically an Orc-arrow. The eagles tended to stay clear of human settlements, being shot at there too - not without reason, as the Lord of the Eagles confessed, as the Eagles did occasionally pinch sheep from men.

Checked my copy of Tyler, and yes, he does commit the error of calling Gwaihir "a descendant of Thorondir". Shame on him! He does give Thorondir correctly as the twenty-second Ruling Steward of Gondor, and immediately following is the entry on Thorondor, Messenger of Manwë and ancestor of Gwaihir.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

We might get a little adrift, ... but based on Olorgando's information I must somewhat correct my previous mail on the friendship between Gwaihir and Gandalf, realizing now that the eagle that was healed by Gandalf cannot have been Gwaihir (though healing any eagle may nonetheless have secured the eagles' esteem for Gandalf).

Douglas A. Anderson argues that as follows (in "The Annotated Hobbit"):

Some Tolkien commentators, including Robert Foster in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth, have been tempted to equate the Lord of the Eagles in TH with Gwaihir the Windlord, the eagle who rescues Gandalf LotR. However, this cannot be the case, for in Chapter 4 of Book V of The Return of the King, "The Field of Cormallen", Gandalf says to Gwaihir: "Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend." The two previous times were demonstrably Gandalf's escape from Orthanc and when Gwaihir bore Gandalf to Lorien after finding him on the peak of Zirak-zigil subsequent to his fight with the Balrog. These two instances exclude the possibility of Gwaihir being the eagle who rescued Gandalf in The Hobbit.​

 

[Olorgando]

Found Gandalf's quote to Gwaihir in "Cormallen" in LoTR, but not yet Anderson's in his "Annotated Hobbit". Which might be hampered by my hardback version being a 2012 German translation (due to the imminence of "The Hobbit" films) of Anderson's 2002 second edition.
Leaving aside the not improbable hypothesis of this being a lapse by JRRT due to his overload of detail, we are talking of 78 years having elapsed between Bilbo's meeting with the eagles in 2941 TA and the post-Rivendell action in LoTR in 3019. Whatever may have been the case with Thorondor, Messenger of Manwë who gave even Morgoth some serious facial scars (after Fingolfin had already done so further south), no beings in Middle-earth besides the Elves were immortal in any sense. Of course, these great eagles may have had a life-span comparable to Dwarves, about 250 years - speculation. So Gwaihir not (no longer) being the "Lord of the Eagles" of TH makes sense beyond Gandalf's above-mentioned statement.

 

[Elthir]

We know that Gwaehir and Landroval are descendants of Thorondor, and that Tolkien (in an Orc text) at least considered that Thorondor could be a Maia. Also, on a typescript to the Annals of Aman: "Manwe, however sent Maia spirits in eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim . . ."
JRRT, AAm, Section 169, Morgoth's Ring

Granted, in the aforementioned Orc essay -- in which long-lived Orc-formed Maiar are confirmed once again -- Tolkien seems to think the idea of Gwaehir being noted as a descendant of Thorondor (in The Lord of the Rings of course) is problematic to Thorondor being a Maia . . .

. . . but for myself, I'm still not sure why this would be, or need to be, problematic. If Maiar adopt physical forms, as Melian, why can't they still create children . . . and eggs?

💥

 

[Aldarion]

We know that Gwaehir and Landroval are descendants of Thorondor, and that Tolkien (in an Orc text) at least considered that Thorondor could be a Maia. Also, on a typescript to the Annals of Aman: "Manwe, however sent Maia spirits in eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim . . ."
JRRT, AAm, Section 169, Morgoth's Ring

Granted, in the aforementioned Orc essay -- in which long-lived Orc-formed Maiar are confirmed once again -- Tolkien seems to think the idea of Gwaehir being noted as a descendant of Thorondor (in The Lord of the Rings of course) is problematic to Thorondor being a Maia . . .

. . . but for myself, I'm still not sure why this would be, or need to be, problematic. If Maiar adopt physical forms, as Melian, why can't they still create children . . . and eggs?

💥

It is problematic because Maiar are immortal... so if Gwaihir is descendant of Thorondor, and also lord of Eagles... what happened to Thorondor? Of course, that question appears one way or the other...

 

[Elthir]

Thorondor soars above Taniquetil.

Or something else . . . but I like this notion

 

[Olorgando]

Well, besides Melian and Thingol, on the other end of the spectrum Ungoliant (whatever she was - deep Tom Bombadil territory) left progeny, the last possibly being Shelob. So why not Thorondor a Maia having adopted the form of a gigantic eagle?

A Hypothesis: at the change of the world at the downfall of Númenor, the Valar might have recalled all Maiar back to the now somehow "other-dimensional" Aman (& the Lonely Isle). And even for Sauron, who would not have heeded the summons as he did not at the end of the First Age, and the Moria Balrog, and whatever other incarnated Maiar remained in Middle-earth, the swifter waning (or wearing-down) that the Elves encountered may have affected the remaining Maiar similarly.

 

[Elthir]

And so we have Gandalf simply misspeaking (as far as the actual count . . . let's face it, resurrection can make you forget your own phone number), just as Gimli misspoke about slaying orcs at the breaking of the fellowship.

And just as we have Elthir twisting in this thread

I forgot about this Gwaihir the Lord of Storm


In The Silmarillion (Beren and Luthien), Christopher Tolkien made an editorial change to the description of Thorondor and his vassals soaring above Morgoth’s realm, replacing a description that Thorondor was the leader of the eagles, and that his mightiest vassals were Lhandroval and Gwaihir.

CJRT explains that the change was made to avoid confusion with the passage in The Return of the King describing Gwaihir and Landroval as the “mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young” But Christopher Tolkien also notes . . .

"At the time, I did not understand the nature and dating of the end of QS. It now appears that there was no reason to suppress the names: in fact, it seems that Gwaewar was changed to Gwaihir to bring it into accord with The Lord of the Rings -- however this is to be interpreted." CJRT, The Lost Road, commentary to "with wings swifter than the wind" Of Beren and Luthien

So, interpret away!

 

[wsx04321]

1. Elves
2. Dwarves
3. Men

Which are the 4th and the 5th armies in the Hobbit?

4.Goblins/Orcs.
5.birds and beasts.

 

[Aldarion]

1. Dwarves
2. Elves
3. Goblins from Gundabad. (no orcs were mentioned)
4. Wargs/ wolves of Ered Mithrin and the Misty Mountains
5. Men

You may also want to include the gigantic bats from Gundabad which is mentioned in publication and not those terrible movies. It is almost like those gigantic vampire bats are some legacy of Thuringwethil.... the mother of Vampires from the first age of Middle Earth, mentioned in The Silmarillion.

There were no trolls, orcs or other beasts in that army, besides Beorn and the Eagles of Manwe.

Hope that helps.

Just a note: Goblins are Orcs; Orc is merely Elven for Goblin, with Orcrist being called the Goblin Cleaver. In the same way, Hobgoblins are basically Uruks (ironic, because in folklore, hobgoblins are smaller than other goblins).