What are you writing about now?

[Server Room Gremlin]

I'm working on a fanfiction. I posted the first part here: https://thetolkien.forum/threads/the-works-of-curufinwe.31600/
But I plan to finish writing the whole thing before posting the rest, just to make sure it all fits together well.

Anyway, I'd been stuck on creating a piece of dialogue for a few days. But today I completed it, and I like the results. ☺️

I knew where I wanted the conversation to end (regarding the resulting inner thoughts of the characters), but I didn't know how to begin it, or even what it was going to be about.
I stopped writing for a few days. Then when I came back to it, I just kept re-reading things I had previously written, and re-reading relevant bits in the Silmarillion.
Finally, as I was thinking it over one day, something came to mind. I had my starting point. And I went on from there, using what I had been reading before to keep things going. And further inspiration struck a couple of times when I was doing other things, like brushing my teeth (lol).

The actual writing took place over three days or so. And today I wrote the last bit, up until the end result I was initially going for. Hooray!


Some explanation:
The way I write is 'connect the dots'. I get a bunch of scattered ideas for single events that occur all across the length of the story, beginning, middle and end. The actual body of my story and the character development happens when I'm progressing from point to point, joining them together into a whole. The 'event dots' could be anything. An action sequence, a conclusion, an interaction between two characters, a tiny dialogue snippet.

Beginnings and endings are kind of my 'thing'. I find them satisfying and fairly easy to make. I don't like loose story threads hanging around, and I enjoy the process of tying everything back in as I head towards my conclusion. And if it won't tie in (e.g. it is redundant, serves as a needless 'distraction'/divertissement, or only has a tenuous 'point' in my eyes), it gets cut. Though I may repurpose the idea for something else later, if I think it works.

Over the course of my 'dot-connecting', even if I end up developing many more themes or threads in my plot than I had originally imagined, curiously I find my pre-existing conclusion never needs much alteration. Mainly because it's usually a reflection or closure of the overarching theme.

Dialogue is easy when I know my starting point, as it can flow on naturally from there, based on the characters' personalities and likely reactions. But it becomes hard when I only have an end point and I have to figure out what initial thoughts and circumstances would lead me (and the characters) to that conclusion.

Most of my past fiction writing is in comic form, where I only have to keep track of plot, action and dialogue. In many ways it is simpler, as I can just draw whatever I'm imagining, and people will 'get the picture' of a character or setting in an instant.
This story-inventing process of mine began there, and simply carried over into my 'ordinary' writing. Which I never did much of until about 4 years ago, apart from school assignments or other non-fiction writing.


Some things you may find helpful if you are stuck (from my past experience only):

• Depending on how important your particular piece of writing is to you, you may want to pray about it, if you are so inclined.
  
  
• I stare at my problem until it gives up its secrets. Sooner or later, that ends up working. It probably can't handle the scrutiny. 😂
  - You might do this by repeatedly thinking on your stuck point over and over. Keep looking at it until you find a small 'crack', or something different that you may not have realised before. Like an alternative perspective. Once you find that, take note of the new perspective or idea (literally, write it down!), then ask yourself 'where can I go from here'? Once you have the first idea, it becomes easier to persuade the next one out of the abstract dimension where unthought ideas lurk.
  
  
• Re-read past things you have written that are related to the current question or the characters involved. You might find some details, themes or concepts you had forgotten, and these may help with idea generation for your stuck point.

 

[Ent]

I hope we all get to hear/read what you have to say in time :]

No doubt you will, in one form or another.
As to the Introductions and Appendices I've just written of course, one can buy Jeb's books.

As to my own works yet to come, should they get finished, they too will be made available.

It's also fair to say in the course of researching and reading for the impending works... (and in the course of doing the Appendix for this last book) - several things have come up I feel need to be written, but are by no means a 'full book.' At least, not yet. They may become essays I just write out and post here or someplace else for amusements.

One example comes from this Appendix I just finished and submitted yesterday... the end of my 'editing' epoch.

The Appendix started out far differently than what it ended up being.
I realized as I wrote what was originally indended, it was going to become a rather lengthy tome. This would have been fine... but I also realized it could be expanded into an even much lengthier one, easily and profitably. (Not financially, but in terms of 'awareness' for the reader.)

I had built a mild concern about it. Proceed and truncate its potential value? Suitable, but preferable? Or change course. I pondered this in typical Ent fashion for 3 days.

Then I made the mistake of watching a part of the Super Bowl - most particularly, the pre-game show, which grieved me greatly given the nature and subject matter of the book for which I was writing the appendix.

The Appendix turned on a dime, and in short order the new 9-page appendix has been written, edited and submitted.

Yet the original Appendix remains - valid - important - frankly, worthy of completion at whatever length. It could well be a "Volume Two" to the original book in many respects. But the original book is not my story, so...there's that. Perhaps I'll consult with @1stvermont (Jeb Smith) and see what his thoughts are, or if he minds I just launch from the point I see as its beginning, and just cite the stuffins' out of his own original work.

So many possibilities.

Anyway, the Appendix is now done. So begins a period of intensive, extensive reading and preparation for what I believe is to be my first book at this time. The difficulty remains my list contains several I REALLY want to get on with, and 'choosing' among importances is difficult,

On we go. The only thing constant (depending on which and whose unproven scientific theory one listens to) is time marches on unchanged.
From one of the early Batman movies...
.... "So much to do. So little time."

 

[david_wendelken]

Some things you may find helpful if you are stuck (from my past experience only):

• Depending on how important your particular piece of writing is to you, you may want to pray about it, if you are so inclined.
  
  
• I stare at my problem until it gives up its secrets. Sooner or later, that ends up working. It probably can't handle the scrutiny. 😂
  - You might do this by repeatedly thinking on your stuck point over and over. Keep looking at it until you find a small 'crack', or something different that you may not have realised before. Like an alternative perspective. Once you find that, take note of the new perspective or idea (literally, write it down!), then ask yourself 'where can I go from here'? Once you have the first idea, it becomes easier to persuade the next one out of the abstract dimension where unthought ideas lurk.
  
  
• Re-read past things you have written that are related to the current question or the characters involved. You might find some details, themes or concepts you had forgotten, and these may help with idea generation for your stuck point.

Excellent advice on getting unstuck!

 

[david_wendelken]

Went to another local writer's guild meeting.

We took turns reading out loud a few pages of our work. Let's just say it's - instructive - to do that. One of my older stories needs editing to make that workable. The newer one did ever so much better.

Another thing we tried was a writing challenge. We were given a phrase and 9 minutes to write something about that phrase. Ideally, it would have a beginning, middle and end. Then we shared what we wrote. It was fun and I think it's a good exercise to force yourself to be more creative.

So, if anyone wants to do this, PM me and I'll send you a phrase. Look up the phrase I send you when you have 10 minutes to sit down and write a response right then and there. If you want, post it here if it's Tolkien-related, or send it to me. I can promise you'll get nothing but positive comments from me!

Questions?

 

[Ent]

My son used to attend a 'writers guild.' Found it very fun, informative, and useful. Sadly, his interest seems to have waned in favor of other pursuits.

@david_wendelken, you keep coming up with good ideas, and prompting me to think about additions to encouragements.

I've often thought about trying our own little "Inklings" group of writers here, who meet once a month (for example) on Zoom or some other platform.
The TTFlings or something. Perhaps not even using a "TTF" label unless folks wanted to invite others they know who aren't TTFers.

Any number of 'writing games' or exercises, or readings, or whatever, could be coordinated and 'assigned' for example, with results brought to the next meeting for reading out. There could even be a time for reading of parts of current writing projects, just discussions about ideas and objectives, etc.

Tolkien didn't have the advantage of an Internet to assist with attendance for folks frim diverse areas of the planet.

(I used to use Zoom for years to hold bible study/training meetings for groups across the globe. Initial coordination of a suitable meeting time was often very interesting. But it was workable.)

Anyway again, that said, for now I still need to finalize the transition from editing to writing before I can personally judge time and add anything else. But that shouldn't take long.

You may soon get a PM from me on this Phrase Writing Challenge thing. It may be very helpful to facilitate 'getting creative quickly' and provide brief, original work. A good way to "just get writing" rather than sitting and ponder a half hour before jotting a word.

I'll shut up now...

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

I don't know if this quite qualifies as a writing project, but I have been trying really hard to consistently write in my planner/journal (especially as far as it relates to my day-to-day experiences with grief). I was also given a memorial journal for when you lose a loved one from my sister-in-law that I have been making my way through when I feel strong enough.

On a non-grief related note, and again perhaps not quite a writing project, I have been planning out and recording progress on my veggie/flower gardens this year. Already sowed my first wave of spring veggies and beginning to plan/sketch out my garden plots for this summer.

 

[Ent]

qualifies as a writing project,

1. You are writing.
2. You are recording.
3. You are writing in a post about writing and recording.

Seems like writing to me... 😀
And every writing is an opportunity..!

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

I'm working on a fanfiction. I posted the first part here: https://thetolkien.forum/threads/the-works-of-curufinwe.31600/
But I plan to finish writing the whole thing before posting the rest, just to make sure it all fits together well.

I’m glad to hear you’ve been continuing working on this!

Some things you may find helpful if you are stuck (from my past experience only):

• Depending on how important your particular piece of writing is to you, you may want to pray about it, if you are so inclined.
  
  
• I stare at my problem until it gives up its secrets. Sooner or later, that ends up working. It probably can't handle the scrutiny. 😂
  - You might do this by repeatedly thinking on your stuck point over and over. Keep looking at it until you find a small 'crack', or something different that you may not have realised before. Like an alternative perspective. Once you find that, take note of the new perspective or idea (literally, write it down!), then ask yourself 'where can I go from here'? Once you have the first idea, it becomes easier to persuade the next one out of the abstract dimension where unthought ideas lurk.
  
  
• Re-read past things you have written that are related to the current question or the characters involved. You might find some details, themes or concepts you had forgotten, and these may help with idea generation for your stuck point.

Great advice! These are very similar to what I do when stuck. I frequently re-read previously written content and pertinent scenes from Silm to try and see things from a new angle, to gain a deeper understanding of the character and how they might respond in the current situation. Still a time consuming process for me, but it eventually proves fruitful. Sometimes I have discovered a detail from Silm I had forgotten before, and it becomes an influential part of the writing.

Very similarly, staring at it, mulling over the question in mind has been useful as well while doing other tasks. My problem is making sure I remember the new idea, because I’m not always in a position to write it down right away. 😅

And of course, pray, pray, pray! 🙏🏻

Another thing we tried was a writing challenge. We were given a phrase and 9 minutes to write something about that phrase. Ideally, it would have a beginning, middle and end. Then we shared what we wrote. It was fun and I think it's a good exercise to force yourself to be more creative.

A curious exercise! As someone who struggles with being able to produce any substantial amount of writing quickly, having a timer has usually been detrimental to me in times past. More often than not, the written portion of a standardized exam was my bane because I could not consider the prompt and write a whole essay (let alone a well-written one) within the very short amount of time allotted. It’s difficult to sort out one’s thoughts and refrain from being picky over how perfect it is when there’s a timer ticking against you.

Perhaps something like this would be beneficial in strengthening those creative muscles, to encourage the juices to flow more readily, while remaining in a relaxed environment. 🤔

I've often thought about trying our own little "Inklings" group of writers here, who meet once a month (for example) on Zoom or some other platform.
The TTFlings or something. Perhaps not even using a "TTF" label unless folks wanted to invite others they know who aren't TTFers.

Any number of 'writing games' or exercises, or readings, or whatever, could be coordinated and 'assigned' for example, with results brought to the next meeting for reading out. There could even be a time for reading of parts of current writing projects, just discussions about ideas and objectives, etc.

This could be an interesting idea! I’ve enjoyed how much we already encourage one another in our writings here on this thread, so this could be a potential concept to pursue further someday.

I don't know if this quite qualifies as a writing project, but I have been trying really hard to consistently write in my planner/journal (especially as far as it relates to my day-to-day experiences with grief). I was also given a memorial journal for when you lose a loved one from my sister-in-law that I have been making my way through when I feel strong enough.

On a non-grief related note, and again perhaps not quite a writing project, I have been planning out and recording progress on my veggie/flower gardens this year. Already sowed my first wave of spring veggies and beginning to plan/sketch out my garden plots for this summer.

Those certainly count as writing! I keep a planner/journal as well, and it’s another thing I need to work on keeping up with as the days quickly pass by. It’s great you have been genuinely trying to remain consistent with those, as difficult as it may be to write on some days.

Very cool how meticulous you are about planning for your veggie/flower gardens!

~~~~~

As an update of my own writing, a couple weeks ago I was finally able to complete the one RP post I had been working on for over six months!! What a huge relief! However, what it turned out to be was very different than what I had been planning all this time.

I had it all written out finally, having connected all my dots and fleshed things out as much as I wanted. Something still felt a little off about it, but I tried to ignore it for the sake of calling it good enough. The very evening I was preparing to post it, I went back to read the applicable scene in Silm. Welp. As a stickler for making sure details are matching as close as possible to how they are in Silm, I realized the order of events in a large middle chunk of my post did not quite match the impression I got from Silm. This put me into quite a dilemma- leave what I had written, even though it was not entirely accurate to Silm and seemed a bit excessive to me now, or, cut out a majority of this section and rewrite it asap. I had the pressure of time against me by this point, so my thinking was frantic. (Yes, I know this sounds like it would be a simple or ridiculous matter for some people, but these are the kinds of problems I put myself through because I care about it too much.)

After much deliberation, I went down the latter road, despite the extra work it gave me to now rewrite this portion. I’m glad I did, though, because while it took me well into the night and I needed to step away for a break at one point to clear my mind, I am much more satisfied with the end result, more than I would have been with my original version. It’s more concise, it’s cleaner in flow, and overall works better for the purpose of the scene. And it matches Silm now too. 😂

Now on to my next post! I’ve had time enough over the last several months to consider how I might want to approach future moments in the story (for Maedhros and I are following how the story is written in Silm and fleshing it out in detail), so I have already been able to write a decent rough draft version of my post. Trying to fully imagine the environment and how my character interacts with it is still a struggle, but it will all be worked out over time, I suppose. The action is beginning to pick up, so it will hopefully be easier to think and keep things moving as we go forward.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

(Yes, I know this sounds like it would be a simple or ridiculous matter for some people, but these are the kinds of problems I put myself through because I care about it too much.)

If there is such a thing as caring 'too much' about something you make, I don't think you've reached that point. If an issue sticks out to you that much, I think it's best to go with your instinct to redo it. Otherwise it will keep bothering you even after you've 'completed' it.

Smaller problems like getting the wording exactly right can be put aside as 'good enough' when under time constraints, since your meaning will still come across fine. But with larger problems like the one you described, I think it's better to get it right, even if it takes more time than you were hoping.

 

[david_wendelken]

A curious exercise! As someone who struggles with being able to produce any substantial amount of writing quickly, having a timer has usually been detrimental to me in times past. More often than not, the written portion of a standardized exam was my bane because I could not consider the prompt and write a whole essay (let alone a well-written one) within the very short amount of time allotted. It’s difficult to sort out one’s thoughts and refrain from being picky over how perfect it is when there’s a timer ticking against you.

Perhaps something like this would be beneficial in strengthening those creative muscles, to encourage the juices to flow more readily, while remaining in a relaxed environment. 🤔

Here's the REALLY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE between an essay on a test and this exercise.

A test has an external party grading you. Presumably that grade matters, so there's pressure to "get it right". If you don't "get it right", your grade gets marked down. Mistakes matter because they affect the grade.

This writing exercise is done on the privacy of your own computer. No one will ever know if you did it unless you tell them. There is no grade. You don't get marked down for bad grammar, an incomplete story, or even a ludicrous idea. NONE of that matters in this exercise.

Your goal is to learn to see a hint, a clue, a smidgin' of an idea, and RUN with it. See where it takes you with RECKLESS ABANDON. And just as important, see where it takes you QUICKLY. In less than 10 minutes you'll know whether this idea has legs that make it worth expanding into a story.

If it does fit your needs, then you know what to do.

If it doesn't, toss it in the trash heap.

Or file it away because it might turn out to be PERFECT for another story. Because, to quote the best-selling lottery advert of all time, "Hey, ya never know!") Some of my best ideas in life were a Frankenstein, whose body came from the corpses of two to three other failed ideas. Thankfully, I remembered where I put the corpses of those dead ideas so I could dig them up.

This exercise has yet another equally important purpose. It gets you used to sitting down with a tiny fragment of an idea and writing it out RIGHT THEN AND THERE, with no anxiety, staring at a blank page, or any excuses that gets in the way of progress.

In our writing exercise, the writing prompt was "Just Around the Corner". There were four of us, all four of us came up with completely different ideas. This is where the sharing with others becomes more useful. You gain practice seeing different ways to see the same idea. If I do this regularly, I expect my mind will get more limber in how it comes up with ideas. Plus, I'll have more idea fragments to work from.

Anyway, that's why I'm going to continue taking part in these exercises. I didn't really see the point of them before I did one. Now I do.

 

[WatcherWraith]

One of my favorite things to do when working on a story is to roleplay. I find placing myself in characters' mindsets helps me figure out more about them, how they think and react, what principles they hold and why. I generally go over scenes several times over before I feel it's good and done, and then I know more than I did before :]

It's not easy employing this tactic with the project I'm currently working on, because as of yet I know so comparatively little about the plotline, but I'm making progress regardless and I'm grateful. Perhaps it'll be more effective once I have more to work with. Anyway, thought I would share this just in case it was helpful.

 

[david_wendelken]

One of my favorite things to do when working on a story is to roleplay. I find placing myself in characters' mindsets helps me figure out more about them, how they think and react, what principles they hold and why. I generally go over scenes several times over before I feel it's good and done, and then I know more than I did before :]

It's not easy employing this tactic with the project I'm currently working on, because as of yet I know so comparatively little about the plotline, but I'm making progress regardless and I'm grateful. Perhaps it'll be more effective once I have more to work with. Anyway, thought I would share this just in case it was helpful.

I do this too! Sometimes I just put characters together and see what they have to say to one another. I often kind of know ahead of time, but sometimes they surprise me.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

One of my favorite things to do when working on a story is to roleplay. I find placing myself in characters' mindsets helps me figure out more about them, how they think and react, what principles they hold and why. I generally go over scenes several times over before I feel it's good and done, and then I know more than I did before :]

It's not easy employing this tactic with the project I'm currently working on, because as of yet I know so comparatively little about the plotline, but I'm making progress regardless and I'm grateful. Perhaps it'll be more effective once I have more to work with. Anyway, thought I would share this just in case it was helpful.

Yay, I’m glad I’m not the only one who likes to role play as a method of getting to know characters and helping with writing! There’s something about moving through a scene in-character, whether mentally or physically, which can really bring it to life in the mind and help generate ideas. It’s also fun just to imagine yourself in the character’s place while going about doing normal tasks of the day; you can really get a sense of their behavior and how they move in general. How do they walk? How do they ascend stairs, or move as they sit down? How do they sit? What are their facial expressions like? Do they have any interesting quirks? How do they behave differently around certain people, or when they’re in a particular mood or environment? How do they think, and what does it look like when they’re doing so? Etc.

All of these fine details can tell a lot about a character without them even needing to say a word. Understanding this much can greatly lead us towards a deeper level of connection to the characters, and we can access their thoughts better too, perhaps. This is part of what I greatly enjoy when really getting to know a character and those they interact with. Don’t be afraid to have a conversation with an invisible character sitting across from you at the table as you practice the body language of your character (though maybe silently, or when no one’s around 😅), or practice in front of a mirror. If you learn how a character looks or feels through their body language, you can use appropriate descriptors to convey as much in your writing, and it will help bring them to life all the more.

 

[WatcherWraith]

Yay, I’m glad I’m not the only one who likes to role play as a method of getting to know characters and helping with writing! There’s something about moving through a scene in-character, whether mentally or physically, which can really bring it to life in the mind and help generate ideas. It’s also fun just to imagine yourself in the character’s place while going about doing normal tasks of the day; you can really get a sense of their behavior and how they move in general. How do they walk? How do they ascend stairs, or move as they sit down? How do they sit? What are their facial expressions like? Do they have any interesting quirks? How do they behave differently around certain people, or when they’re in a particular mood or environment? How do they think, and what does it look like when they’re doing so? Etc.

All of these fine details can tell a lot about a character without them even needing to say a word. Understanding this much can greatly lead us towards a deeper level of connection to the characters, and we can access their thoughts better too, perhaps. This is part of what I greatly enjoy when really getting to know a character and those they interact with. Don’t be afraid to have a conversation with an invisible character sitting across from you at the table as you practice the body language of your character (though maybe silently, or when no one’s around 😅), or practice in front of a mirror. If you learn how a character looks or feels through their body language, you can use appropriate descriptors to convey as much in your writing, and it will help bring them to life all the more.

All this and more. Sometimes I interact with other people while in the character, and have made more than one favorable impression at work by playing one of my made-up people. Roleplay is something I do daily, as I spent a good deal of my childhood doing it with my siblings, and I don't ever want to stop. It's not easy roleplaying with others, but one day, perhaps, I can do it.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

All this and more. Sometimes I interact with other people while in the character, and have made more than one favorable impression at work by playing one of my made-up people. Roleplay is something I do daily, as I spent a good deal of my childhood doing it with my siblings, and I don't ever want to stop. It's not easy roleplaying with others, but one day, perhaps, I can do it.

How cool other people have had the honor of enjoying your role playing. I do it daily as well, almost automatically because it’s so ingrained from when I was a young kid too, though perhaps a little more low-key so only I am aware of what I am doing without looking strange to others. I really only truly do live-action roleplay with my best friend, Maedhros here, and with my cousins. You definitely need those special people to role play with in order for the magic of it to really take hold when you’re in the moment and in-character. All in the name of researching our characters for our writing! 😂

 

[david_wendelken]

I had two undone sections in the big transition chapter I was working on. Knocked one of them out last night. Even better, I tied in the actions of the hero in it to the ironic counterstroke by the bad guy in a later chapter.

 

[WatcherWraith]

One major source of reassurance and stability in writing is research. Time and again I am reminded never to underestimate it, especially for a more serious work. I have just been recommended a number of books on war, and each seems to apply to one or another aspect of my story which I know I need to flesh out more. It's not enough to know Middle Earth and its history, geography and events as best as I can: the psychology of people must be studied, and nations similar to those Tolkien wrote about. War must be studied, both in its tactics and in its effects.

I must know how Amandil, my main character, is to carry on a sort of war against Sauron's forces when he has so little. I must know how he can succeed, what kinds of obstacles he would face, how his men would react to his leadership, what kinds of difficulties would arise from defeat, how much defeat I can afford to give him before morale crumbles, etc....

I have never loved research so much as I do in this project. Before, I merely looked things up, found dates and peoples, the meanings behind certain slang or phrases of speech, noted a few peculiarities of behavior. Now I must go far deeper if I want my story to be worth publishing in my own eyes, if I want it to be accepted by a huge group of people dedicated in varying degrees to the world Tolkien wrote. Oh, it's going to take a long, long time. And it will all be worth it!

Forth Eorlingas!

 

[Ent]

One major source of reassurance and stability in writing is research.

I have never loved research so much as I do in this project

Ah, I'm trying so hard to Huorn. But you folks on this thread keep bringing me out again..!

How right you are, @WatcherWraith.
Though your current project and mine are very different, yet the issues remain the same.

As you know, for my first book, tentatively titled J.R.R. Tolkien and the Elements of ReligionI, in addition to researching all Tolkien himself said, I've laid in some 19 books needing careful study.

The one currently being reviewed is demonstrative of common errors I believe various authors make, and early on I was making myself. J.R.R. Tolkien, Christian maker of Middle-earth. The book is well written, and well annotated... which is good as I can track down almost every original source cited for confirmation.

But here's the deal: the author cites a quote made by another pair of authors. But the original quote they cite in their work comes from an INTERVIEW they did with Tolkien.

The potential problem? It is from that INTERVIEW they cite Tolkien as saying "LoTR is intentionally a Catholic and religios work." Their quote is then parroted buy following authors in the same way, without questioning it.

Did Tolkien really say "...Catholic and religions work"... or did he say "catholic and religious work."
The capitalized Catholic of course, as it is passed along, leads us to believe Tolkien is referring to his Catholic Christianity. However, the uncapitalized catholic simply uses the term in its common definition: "universal, all embracing, including a wide variety."

Now... if Tolkien meant "Catholic" then we have s serious conflict between what he said in the interview, and what he wrote about "not including any overt Christianity" in his work. In other words, Tolkien would be lying in the one case, or the other. Talking out of both sides of his mouth. Yet being a devoute Christian, it would be very hard for him to lie, or intentionally mislead.

Thus people 'bang up against the bulkheads' again, not researching and thinking deeply enough to see if the 'apparent' conflict can be resolved. And obviously it can.

If Tolkien meant "....catholic", we have no dichotomy at all. As he said, he wanted "no overt Christianity"... but two paragraphs later also said "in any mythology the Elements of Religion MUST be present".

So we see his works include elements of religion common to many 'religions,' some elements common to just a few, and some hard to find in any, but suitable to the situation.

Clearly, Tolkien includes in the Creation event and many other areas, 'elements of religions' totally contrary to Catholicism and Christianity.

Yet even in this J.R.R. Tolkien, Christian maker of Middle-earth, we need to be cautious to put its author into HIS right plane of endeavor with his work. His focus based on the title, is J.R.R. Tolkien and HIS 'christianity' - not the resulting 'christianity' infused into his SIL, TH, and LoTR. The author primarily dealing with the author himself, and the 'inability to separate him from his Catholic/Christian background."

This last statement concerns me however, as it IMPLIES eventually the author has an ultimate agenda of turning Tolkien's works themselves into "Christian based works." If he actually 'goes there', it will be unfortunate. Many of the authors of these books do seem to try to push Tolkien into their own agendas, without recognizing what they're doing.

To do so implies Tolkien is literally "incapable of separating thought from thought, and concept from concept"... a tenet I just can't buy into. Tolkien's 'laboring over every word' dealt with many things, not the least of which was to be sure he stuck to the "Elements of Religion" and not "one religion or set of beliefs." His work is all over the map of religious thoughts, both from the 'real world religions' and from those of other mythologies with which he was very familiar.

My book J.R.R. Tolkien and the Elements of Religion is, essentially, going to be a work to bring "balance to the Force." A book to highlight how we need to approach and consider what Tolkien really did, and how recognizing this eliminates a great deal of confusion and conflict regarding the subject.

I see the ongoing impact of Melkor's discord among readers of Tolkien... taking a stand rather than researching with an open mind. Yes, for those who know, another scenario of Ent's "Religion of Opinion" stepping to the fore and blinding people.

I primarily have two people to thank for my own current posture on Tolkiens intent.

@Squint-eyed Southerner once made a comment on something I had posted, shaking me to my core and driving me into a whole new and different plane of research, and challenging of my own thinking methods. There is much knowledge, insight and depth in @Squint-eyed Southerner, and when he speaks one should listen. I owe him an incalculable debt.

Then we have @1stvermont (Jeb Smith) and his soon to arrive work Middle-earth Lore. His views, research and thinking drive toward the same direction of careful analysis and understanding of what Tolkien actually said, and how it applies and works out in his 3 different works, one being primarily written as mythology, the other two more as history. The impacts are profound. Working on the book with him has been an incredible joy, done at a key time in my own thinking about 'all things Tolkien.' (His 2nd book, Missing Monarchy, contains more of the same careful work and analysis.) Another incalculable debt owed.

In any event, research is the key. And research not looking to 'support a position,,' but rather research to 'see what is said,' continually developing one's understanding for more careful and accurate application.

@WatcherWraith, the research you need to do, building, developing, working on many fronts covering all of human life is actually far deeper than what I need to do, given my work is on a more focused arena.

And yes, 'bringing balance to the Force' is of itself an Agenda as well.... so I can't be divorced from my own perspective and objective either in a sense.

But the love of research grows, as we push ourselves to every more accuracy and integrity.
We just need to keep in mind there are different purposes for 'research,' primarily boiling down to two categories: 1) - research to support and prove a 'point' (i.e. an agenda) or 2) - research to discover the truths at hand. (Also called 'closed minded' and 'open minded').

I'll get back to Huorning now.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Wha'd I say?! 😳🤯

 

[WatcherWraith]

Ah, I'm trying so hard to Huorn. But you folks on this thread keep bringing me out again..!

How right you are, @WatcherWraith.
Though your current project and mine are very different, yet the issues remain the same.

As you know, for my first book, tentatively titled J.R.R. Tolkien and the Elements of ReligionI, in addition to researching all Tolkien himself said, I've laid in some 19 books needing careful study.

The one currently being reviewed is demonstrative of common errors I believe various authors make, and early on I was making myself. J.R.R. Tolkien, Christian maker of Middle-earth. The book is well written, and well annotated... which is good as I can track down almost every original source cited for confirmation.

But here's the deal: the author cites a quote made by another pair of authors. But the original quote they cite in their work comes from an INTERVIEW they did with Tolkien.

The potential problem? It is from that INTERVIEW they cite Tolkien as saying "LoTR is intentionally a Catholic and religios work." Their quote is then parroted buy following authors in the same way, without questioning it.

Did Tolkien really say "...Catholic and religions work"... or did he say "catholic and religious work."
The capitalized Catholic of course, as it is passed along, leads us to believe Tolkien is referring to his Catholic Christianity. However, the uncapitalized catholic simply uses the term in its common definition: "universal, all embracing, including a wide variety."

Now... if Tolkien meant "Catholic" then we have s serious conflict between what he said in the interview, and what he wrote about "not including any overt Christianity" in his work. In other words, Tolkien would be lying in the one case, or the other. Talking out of both sides of his mouth. Yet being a devoute Christian, it would be very hard for him to lie, or intentionally mislead.

Thus people 'bang up against the bulkheads' again, not researching and thinking deeply enough to see if the 'apparent' conflict can be resolved. And obviously it can.

If Tolkien meant "....catholic", we have no dichotomy at all. As he said, he wanted "no overt Christianity"... but two paragraphs later also said "in any mythology the Elements of Religion MUST be present".

So we see his works include elements of religion common to many 'religions,' some elements common to just a few, and some hard to find in any, but suitable to the situation.

Clearly, Tolkien includes in the Creation event and many other areas, 'elements of religions' totally contrary to Catholicism and Christianity.

Yet even in this J.R.R. Tolkien, Christian maker of Middle-earth, we need to be cautious to put its author into HIS right plane of endeavor with his work. His focus based on the title, is J.R.R. Tolkien and HIS 'christianity' - not the resulting 'christianity' infused into his SIL, TH, and LoTR. The author primarily dealing with the author himself, and the 'inability to separate him from his Catholic/Christian background."

This last statement concerns me however, as it IMPLIES eventually the author has an ultimate agenda of turning Tolkien's works themselves into "Christian based works." If he actually 'goes there', it will be unfortunate. Many of the authors of these books do seem to try to push Tolkien into their own agendas, without recognizing what they're doing.

To do so implies Tolkien is literally "incapable of separating thought from thought, and concept from concept"... a tenet I just can't buy into. Tolkien's 'laboring over every word' dealt with many things, not the least of which was to be sure he stuck to the "Elements of Religion" and not "one religion or set of beliefs." His work is all over the map of religious thoughts, both from the 'real world religions' and from those of other mythologies with which he was very familiar.

My book J.R.R. Tolkien and the Elements of Religion is, essentially, going to be a work to bring "balance to the Force." A book to highlight how we need to approach and consider what Tolkien really did, and how recognizing this eliminates a great deal of confusion and conflict regarding the subject.

I see the ongoing impact of Melkor's discord among readers of Tolkien... taking a stand rather than researching with an open mind. Yes, for those who know, another scenario of Ent's "Religion of Opinion" stepping to the fore and blinding people.

I primarily have two people to thank for my own current posture on Tolkiens intent.

@Squint-eyed Southerner once made a comment on something I had posted, shaking me to my core and driving me into a whole new and different plane of research, and challenging of my own thinking methods. There is much knowledge, insight and depth in @Squint-eyed Southerner, and when he speaks one should listen. I owe him an incalculable debt.

Then we have @1stvermont (Jeb Smith) and his soon to arrive work Middle-earth Lore. His views, research and thinking drive toward the same direction of careful analysis and understanding of what Tolkien actually said, and how it applies and works out in his 3 different works, one being primarily written as mythology, the other two more as history. The impacts are profound. Working on the book with him has been an incredible joy, done at a key time in my own thinking about 'all things Tolkien.' (His 2nd book, Missing Monarchy, contains more of the same careful work and analysis.) Another incalculable debt owed.

In any event, research is the key. And research not looking to 'support a position,,' but rather research to 'see what is said,' continually developing one's understanding for more careful and accurate application.

@WatcherWraith, the research you need to do, building, developing, working on many fronts covering all of human life is actually far deeper than what I need to do, given my work is on a more focused arena.

And yes, 'bringing balance to the Force' is of itself an Agenda as well.... so I can't be divorced from my own perspective and objective either in a sense.

But the love of research grows, as we push ourselves to every more accuracy and integrity.
We just need to keep in mind there are different purposes for 'research,' primarily boiling down to two categories: 1) - research to support and prove a 'point' (i.e. an agenda) or 2) - research to discover the truths at hand. (Also called 'closed minded' and 'open minded').

I'll get back to Huorning now.

I wanted to split this into sections, but unfortunately I don't quite know how to accomplish this yet, and there would be many, many sections in any case.

The general response I wish to give you is "Thank you, very, very much", for in the little time I have been on this forum you have proven yourself a person of much knowledge and thought. These are admirable traits and ones to respect when one finds them.

As for more specific responses: I must say, your perspective and mine align when it comes to Tolkien's including catholic/christian virtues in his work. Given Tolkien himself wrote he despised allegories(and I actually had a debate with someone elsewhere over this exact topic, branding it into my mind in the process), this piece of evidence alone is enough to suggest to me he did not write his books with any overt intent to introduce or teach Catholicism or Catholic virtues, etc. I have my copy of the Silmarillion(as well as a recent gift of Tolkien's letters) to thank for this, as the introduction the the book contains a large portion of one of Tolkien's letters expressly on this subject.

Looks like Squint-eyed Southerner has been found out! 😆 Now I shall pay attention to his words more carefully. And it looks like I'll have to keep an eye out for Jeb Smith's work, and hope I can afford to get it when it does come out :]

Lastly, I agree with your point concerning the goals of research and the agendas one may have, right or wrong. Agenda must be carefully weighed before approaching a project, and mine(I am glad to say) have a constant guide close at hand. Recently it's been more difficult, as my lack of knowledge and resources made it so I did not know where to go with my work, but conversations with friends and family have been helpful, and I know have something more to work with.

I wish you all joy with your works, and may Huorning continue apace. All thanks and Namarië!