What did 🧙Gandalf mean by 'Flame of Anor?' (merged threads)

[Elu Thingol]

Rangerdave, where does it say that Anor is Valinor. I can't remember reading it any where. Can you please enlighten me.

 

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Rangerdave, where does it say that Anor is Valinor. I can't remember reading it any where. Can you please enlighten me.

Well, nowhere. I just wanted to yank Ulairi's chain a bit. The logic of his rebutal is that Elves would not forge swords if there were no foes around. I find that just a bit silly. The time to prepare for war is when you are at peace. Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to prepare.

RD

 

[Elu Thingol]

Good Job Rangerdave and BluestEye! You guys definetly pinned down Ulairi even though he was wrong about Valinor being Anor in the first place.

 

[Úlairi]

What is Anor then, if you have so carefully pinned me down? It's the sun, Anor is the sun (as in Minas Anor). And here's the punchline, this is where my usual logic comes right back in. I had a little discussion before and we concluded that Gandalf was the wielder of the Flame Imperishable (Iluvatar). Glamdring was definitely not of Iluvatar. So, how could the Flame of the Flame Imperishable be Glamdring. Answer me that one, I know you can't.

And the mighty Ulairi has once again got himself out of trouble! You mere mortals can never defeat me!

 

[Elu Thingol]

Where did you conclude that the "flame of anor" was in fact the flame imperishable. Since Anor is the sun and the sun is a perishable flame, Anor would not be an imperishable flame.

 

[Theoden]

I don't know, but it is a cool question and one that I have asked myself alot. Thanx to all of you Tolkien fans who know more thsn I do.

 

[Rangerdave]

A couple of questions.

1. Was Galdalf included in the Istari at the request of Manwe or Varda?

2. Did Varda created the sun as she did the stars?

The reason I ask, is that if Varda created the sun; the Flame of Anor may be an allusion to the Power of Varda. Sort of the old "I am the right hand of God" type thing. Or put another way, the Flame or Anor may be a reference rather than a thing.

Ideas?
RD

 

[BluestEye]

To your questions, Rangerdave:

1. When Manwe asked from the Maiar to vulenteer for this quest, the Valar sent Curunir and Co. But when he saw that Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't in this Co. he asked: "But where is Olorin?" Then he stepped forward and was sent with the rest of the Istari to ME. It is said that he was the only one who truly feared Sauron and didn't want to leave Arda because he liked the company of the Valinorean Elves.

2. Varda was one of the creators of the Sun, as far as I remember. There was another Valar working with her along with Manwe to create the Sun and the Moon. If you want to, I can look for you in the Sil for the name of this third Valar.

BluestEye

 

[Lantarion]

From The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, by Robert Foster.

SunThe younger, brighter and hotter of the two lamps of heaven created by the Valar after the poisoning of the Two Trees. The light of the Sun was the last fruit of Laurelin, placed in a vessel made bu Aulë and guided through the heavens by Arien.

So really the only Vala who was involved in the making of the Sun was Aulë, because Arien was a Maia.

 

[BluestEye]

From "The Silmarilion" (First Edition) by J.R.R Tolkien (not Robert Foster)

"These [the flower and the fruit of the dying trees] Yavanna took; and then the Trees died, and their lifeless stems stand yet in Valinor, a memorial of vanished joy. But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aule, and Manwe hallowed them, and Aule and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion , the Song of the Sun and Moon. These vessels the Valar gave to Varda, that they might become lamps of heaven, outshining the ancient stars, being nearer to Arda; and she gave them power to traverse the lower regions of Ilmen, and set them to voyage upon appointed couses above the girdle of the Earth from the West unto the East and to return."

"The Silmarilion" [First Edition] - Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

I suggest you to stick with Tolkien, Pontifex
He seems to know best about Middle-earth History...

Bluest Eye

 

[Elu Thingol]

He should know best he created it.

 

[Grond]

Just a question. Has it been resolved that the sword Glamdring was indeed forged in Gondolin? If it hasn't here is the quote from the Hobbit,

"'These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!'"

This does not definatively say that they were forged by the Elves but in my readings of the Silmarillion, Dwarves never even knew of its existence so it would have been hard for them to have forged it there.

 

[Úlairi]

You are correct Bluesteye, and Grond, well done, I forgot that quote. Here is another quote from the Sil saying that Arien, the Maia of Fire, took part in its creation.

"The maiden whom the Valar chose from among the Maiar to guide the vessel of the Sun was named Arien,..."

However, Bluesteye was exact in what he has stated.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Where did you conclude that the "flame of anor" was in fact the flame imperishable. Since Anor is the sun and the sun is a perishable flame, Anor would not be an imperishable flame.

Read back at the very beginnig of this thread, and you'll find the answers to your questions there.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Ulairi I admit my idea is a little far fetched but it is a possiblility, I don't think we can ever know for sure what Gandalf meant. It is possible that Gandalf was refering to Glamdring though.

 

[Grond]

I am still unsure. Gandalf could easily be referring to his Ring Narya. Certainly it is the Elvish Ring of Fire and would have been imbued with the power of Anor when it was made by Celebrimbor. I don't think we will ever reach a definite conclustion on this.

 

[BluestEye]

Pontifex,
I trust that I haven't hurt you with my humorous remark about sticking with J.R.R Tolkien's works. If I did - please accept my appology.

Best regards,
Bluest Eye

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
I am still unsure. Gandalf could easily be referring to his Ring Narya. Certainly it is the Elvish Ring of Fire and would have been imbued with the power of Anor when it was made by Celebrimbor. I don't think we will ever reach a definite conclustion on this.

Stick to what sounds true Grond. Imbued with the power of Anor? Plausible, yet IMO improbable. Wielder of the Flame... Flame = Power? Hmmmm...interesting. Flame could mean power in this context, and for sure there is an undiscernable subtext that I would love to get to the bottom of, but there is no way. Mithrandir2003, I am glad that you have seen reason, it could be Glamdring, but I seriously doubt and I mean seriously. I am quite happy to say that the Flame of Anor is the Flame Imperishable (Iluvatar), and that Gandalf wields him ie his power, however, we can never discern the subtext, which is extremely aggravating.

 

[Carantalath]

What does Gandalf mean?

In the Fellowship of the Ring, in the Bridge of Khazad-dum chapter, Gandalf is on the bridge with the balrog and he says something like 'you can not pass. I am the servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of anor.' Then he says some thing about flame of udin.

Now, what on earth does he mean? What are the flame of anor and the flame of udin? I thought there was a thread somewhere a long time ago about this but I'm too lazy to go and find it. Does anyone know what Gandalf is talking about? Thanks!

 

[Confusticated]

I'm not sure exactly what is ment by weilder of the flame of Anor, this could be some power granted to him as part of his Wizard status, or perhaps the Ring he bears...

Flame of udun as I take it, means flame of hell