What did 🧙Gandalf mean by 'Flame of Anor?' (merged threads)

[Úlairi]

What did Gandalf mean?

"'You cannot pass,' he said. The Orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor...

Some people believe that Gandalf was referring to Narya, the Red Ring when he says this to the Balrog. But Gandalf explicitly says:

...flame of Anor....

Anor is Aman or Valinor, correct? He couldn't have been referring to Minas Anor. So, what is the Flame of Anor? What is Gandalf actually referring to when he says this?

 

[Úlairi]

Is anyone going to post?

 

[Rangerdave]

I would assume that both refer to the Flame Impersihasble that resides with Iluvatar. The flame that kindles but does not consume. The flame of hope and the flame of justice.

The self same flame that Melkor searched for in vain, not knowing that it was a part of him. In short, the mind of God.

Maybe
RD

 

[BluestEye]

Looks as if everybody is tired of this topic

I have openned a thread about this some months ago, named: "Just A Crazy Theory". You can take a look at it if you want.

BluestEye

 

[Grond]

From the Silmarillion

"He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."[The Silmarillion]

Then later:

"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea." [The Silmarillion]


The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to represent the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought - the spirit of creation, if you will. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" as counterposed to the evil of the Balrog. In this context, any notion of Gandalf serving the power of his ring would be incorrect.

 

[BluestEye]

I think that the Imperishable Flame is very similar to the Power many ancient civilizations spoke about (Prana in India, Ka in Ancient Egypt and Ki or Chi in the Far-East). It is the Power of Life itself, the reason for our own being. This is the 'electricity' that functions our bodies. This is the power of Creation. And Gandalf serves this Power, because Creation is the power of Goodness while Distraction is the power of Evil things.

BluestEye

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Yes Ulairi. Maybe u should look at the other thread. He could have meant anor as in Eraidor?? I think as does Grond that the Flame that Gandalf spoke of isnt the same as Iluvatars flame. I think he speaks of the flame with reference to his ring and the power with fire which he holds. The ring was made in Anor and has spent most its time there with Gandalf and Cirdan.

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
From the Silmarillion

"He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."[The Silmarillion]

Then later:

"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea." [The Silmarillion]


The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to represent the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought - the spirit of creation, if you will. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" as counterposed to the evil of the Balrog. In this context, any notion of Gandalf serving the power of his ring would be incorrect.

Thankyou Grond. BluestEye, I did not see your thread, I am sorry. Grond, I thought that this was the answer to my question, but, as always, I had to be sure.

 

[BluestEye]

Ulairi, I'm sorry. I searched for the thread I told you about and I could not find it. Maybe it was removed for some reasn, I dunno.
My appologies,

BluestEye

 

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by BluestEye
Ulairi, I'm sorry. I searched for the thread I told you about and I could not find it. Maybe it was removed for some reasn, I dunno.
My appologies,

BluestEye

As did I. Hey BluestEye, threads eventually go. The Mods do it to keep the bandwith running without any hiccups. No need to apologise for something you didn't even do!

 

[Lantarion]

Beleg, there is no place in Eriador, or indeed Middle-Earth, called Anor. There was a place called Arnor, which was part of the old kingdom of the Dúnedain and was reinsteted with the return of the King. Anor was the name of the Sun, and Anórien was its wielder. I think the Flame of Anor means that he carries with him a spirit of hope and light which even a demon of power like the Balrog cannot quench. I also think he could be talking about his ring, Narya, which was the Red Ring of Fire of the Three Elven Rings; it strengthened the wielder's spirit and mind, which must have helped Gandalf in many situations.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Well,Anor is the name of the Sun.The sun is a kind of giant fire,something which light goes everywhere and keeps hope alive.I would say that the ring of Gandalf has some parallels with the sun.Both they're fire and light and even hope.It's said that the ring of fire would keep people's hope ,just like the sun.During all battles when the day was coming and sun ligths always gave hope to the people in battles and they won after all.So I think the parallel between Anor and Narya is obvious.

 

[Úlairi]

The Sun was made by the Maia Arien and was named Anor, that is correct Gil-galad. There is one place in Middle-earth where Anor is mentioned, and that is Minas Anor, which was changed to Minas Tirith.

 

[Sam_Gamgee]

NO CLUE

 

[BluestEye]

Concerning Minas Anor

In the Sil "Minas Anor" is the city of Anarion, and it's name means: "The City Of The Sun" (In my head I imagine now Esteban and Zia riding on their Golden-Condor....).
Also, it is mentioned in the Sil that the city was sometimes called just "Anor".
So, if indeed we want to look for an actual place called Anor, it is "Minas Anor". Anybody knows of a Flame in Minas Anor (Later "Minas Tirith") that can be wielded? The two things that I can think about are: the Palantir of Minas Anor or the Great Library of wisdom beneath that beautiful city.

BluestEye

 

[Úlairi]

Yes, very good BluestEye, however, I do not think that Gandalf would be the servant of them. So I think we can stick to Iluvatar being the Flame Imperishable or the Secret Fire for now.

 

[BluestEye]

Yes Ulairi, though when I mentioned Minas Anor's Palantir and it's Great Undergrund Library I meant to suggest that it is possible that Gandalf hinted that he wields the Wisdom of these things which hold the power of Good.

BluestEye

 

[Úlairi]

Very good points, but therefore you are suggesting that he is mentioning wisdom as a flame and I do not know of anywhere that that is a possibility, and being a servant of wisdom is also impossible, as he is the wisest of all Maiar.

 

[BluestEye]

But this is exactly my point, Ulairi
He doesn't say that he is the Servant of the Fire of Anor. He says he is the weilder of the Flame of Anor, so he may suggest he has the "Flame" of Wisdom that comes from the knowledge of the Underground Library of "Minar Tirith" (Once "Minas Anor", or simply "Anor").

BluestEye

 

[Grond]

I must reexamine my position. I overlooked the fact that Gandalf said "wield". That can only mean (IMHO) that he had a weapon. The only weapons we know that Gandalf could have wielded would have been Glamdring or Narya. Given that the Ring he wears is the Ring of Fire and Anor means Sun... I would have to say that he is referring to his Ring of Fire.

(Who says that Grond can't change his mind???)