What if Ar-Pharazon seized the One Ring?

[Inderjit S]

What do you mean my points make no sense? If the elves are oppressed beyond imagination, why wouldn't they send a new messenger to Valinor? And why wouldn't Valinor respond? And that point in the story, Valinor was still part of this world. In LotR, Valinor is no longer a part of this world and would not intervene directly. And this is why I believe Sauron would launch an all-fronts attack on Middle-Earh in LotR time, but not so before the "departure" of Valinor.

As far as I know all the Valar did to help Middle-Earth was send Glorfindel, and maybe a few other Elves, and possibly the Blue Wizards to the East. Why didn't the Valar help in other situations when the Elves were being "opressed"? Why help exiled Elves and not Men? I thought the War of Wrath was the Valar's last intervention in the world. Why didn't they just attack Numenor to help the opressed faithful? Because it was not their task to do so. I don't have any of the books with me at the moment, so I am handicapped but I am pretty sure that the War of Wrath was their final proper involvement in Middle-Earth.

 

[Thorondor_]

Why didn't the Valar help in other situations when the Elves were being "opressed"?
Why didn't they just attack Numenor to help the opressed faithful?

I said oppressed beyond imagination, they shouldn't jump everytime there is any sort of oppresion, only when the very pillars of the Creation are at great risk (Valinor, Eru's Children, etc). They saw the limits of their reasoning; even if they intended good, they did release Melkor, and they did brought the elves to Aman (and later, after the fall of Numenor, they saw their mistake of giving mortal humans more gifts than Eru gave). So, I guess it's a slow process of understanding of behalf of the Valar - that they should only intervene directly when there is no other way. And after the fall of Numenor, I bet they would only intervene indirectly. But, what we discuss takes places before this event; only after this do they realise how bad they can judge things.

Why help exiled Elves and not Men?

Didn't the Valar help humans also when defeated Melkor? Or there is another point to the question?

The War of Wrath was their final proper involvement in Middle-Earth

I would say their last major involvment would be to ask Eru to intervene in the earthly matters. That is the best card they could ever play; with that, they can change any course of events to their liking.

 

[Inderjit S]

I said oppressed beyond imagination, they shouldn't jump everytime there is any sort of oppresion, only when the very pillars of the Creation are at great risk (Valinor, Eru's Children, etc). They saw the limits of their reasoning; even if they intended good, they did release Melkor, and they did brought the elves to Aman (and later, after the fall of Numenor, they saw their mistake of giving mortal humans more gifts than Eru gave). So, I guess it's a slow process of understanding of behalf of the Valar - that they should only intervene directly when there is no other way. And after the fall of Numenor, I bet they would only intervene indirectly. But, what we discuss takes places before this event; only after this do they realise how bad they can judge things.

I am pretty sure the Elves and Men were opressed beyond imagination during the Black Years. The Valar knew it as they sent Glorfindel, but no armies. Why? Because their last proper intervention was the War of Wrath. They would not intervene again to save the peoples of Middle-Earth. The War of Wrath was their last intervention. And how did they contravene Eru when giving gifts to the men of Numenor? They didn't give them any new gifts, that was beyond their power, they merely lengthened their age to the original age of men, before they were corrupted by Melkor. How bad they can judge things? I think the "very pillars of creation" were at risk a lot of times when the Valar chose not to intervene.

Didn't the Valar help humans also when defeated Melkor? Or there is another point to the question?

What?

I would say their last major involvment would be to ask Eru to intervene in the earthly matters. That is the best card they could ever play; with that, they can change any course of events to their liking.

That was not a intervention per se, they were merely trying to protect their realm from Numenor-they didn't know what Eru would do to protect them.

 

[Alatar]

Inderjit S said that sauron should of used Ar P to get ME under his sway, ie; killing the faithful and finishiing his war with the elves in lindon and rivendell, the going to Num to wave goodbye to the king. As of now the valar would do nothing as it is the numenorians who are fighting.
Then they would be forced to call on Eru destroing numenor, then sauron would go back to ME and enslave the men there.
This is after the change of the world so the valar will do nothing(On a army scale).
GOT THAT!

Gandalf states that the ring doesn't prolong life.

From the fellowship of the ring, The shadow of the past.

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps a great ring does not die,"

I will say no more.

 

[Thorondor_]

"The Valar knew it as they sent Glorfindel, but no armies. Why?"
The Valar would intervene massively, if I may say so, only after a messenger from M-E would come to Valinor and ask this. And this was Earendil, who came to Valinor after Glorfindel came to M-E, this is why no army was sent before.
"And how did they contravene Eru when giving gifts to the men of Numenor? They didn't give them any new gifts, that was beyond their power, they merely lengthened their age to the original age of men, before they were corrupted by Melkor."
Inderjit, I didn't say the Valar contradicted Eru when giving humans those gifts, I only said they realised they made a mistake.
About the gifts given to numenoreans: men of the three faithful Houses and those who have joined them were richly rewarded, for Eonwe came among them and thaught them and gave them wisdom, power and a life . I was reffering to these gifts, and esspecially to the gift of power, without which the numenoreans could never grew so great and so proud.
About the mistakes of the valar:

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed

In my opinion the worst judgement on behalf of the Valar was the release of Melkor, the second was inviting the elves to Valinor and the third one as importance was the gifts given to the numenoreans.


Alatar, you didn't provide the full quote:

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness...[]
Of course it is a poor sort of long life that the Ring gives, a kind of stretched life rather than a continued growing - a sort of thinning and thinning

I wouldn't call this "poor sort of life" a life in itself, it would be a twisting of the word and its normal meaning for us, humans. If you do want to call it "life", then you are right to say that the one ring gives immortality. Otherwise, I don't think so.

 

[Alatar]

You said that gandalf said the ring dosn't prolong life, HE DID. The qulity dosen't matter, it prolongs your life! FACT!
I never said that the ring gave life, just prolongs it. Gandalf said that to.

 

[Thorondor_]

Quality doesn't matter? Then, elves and orcs are pretty much the same? Maiar and balrogs are pretty much the same? Melkor and any Ainu are pretty much the same? What kind of world is this, where there is no colour and no black and no white even?? Tolkien's view of the world is very religious, I doubt he would ever say quality doesn't matter.
Oxford dictionary definition of life: "the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth and functional activity"
And one who is under the complete influence of the ring is even bellow inorganic matter level (not to speak above it), his body is no longer of this world, but of the subtle world of "hell". Therefore, whatever he "enjoys", it is not life.

 

[Inderjit S]

The Valar would intervene massively, if I may say so, only after a messenger from M-E would come to Valinor and ask this. And this was Eärendil, who came to Valinor after Glorfindel came to M-E, this is why no army was sent before

Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth in the Second Age, after Sauron had attacked the Elves. He was killed in Gondolin beforehand. Eärendil’s case was special-he had the Silmaril and it was decreed by Mandos that Eärendil would come, Eärendil was merely continuing Eru's plan, as seen by Mandos, so his plea was accepted.

Why didn't the Valar help if the Amandil reached them as a emmisary? Why would they need emissaries? If they loved them as you say then they would have helped anyway. Eärendil as an emissary was important as it was his pre-destined role.

My point being was that the Valar did not help the Elves during the War in Beleriand because it was not their role to do so, just as it wouldn’t have been their role to so had the Númenóreans invaded Middle-Earth.

In my opinion the worst judgement on behalf of the Valar was the release of Melkor, the second was inviting the elves to Valinor and the third one as importance was the gifts given to the numenoreans.

"Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends" Do not be too eager to judge as you see fit, for even the most logical decision can go awry and the illogical ones can work for the general good. The Valar promised Melkor they would release him after a set period and if he had repented. Some may have seen through him, but if they had gone against their promise then they would have become like him, breaking promises was not the domain of Manwë but of Melkor. And if Melkor hadn't been released-would things have been better then? And how was the giving of gifts to the Numenoreans a mistake? Should the Elves have withheld their teachings too? Men naturally wished for immortality, or saw death as a curse, the Númenóreans with the help of the Valar's gifts saw death as a gift, when they began to disobey the Valar they yearned for what they could not get.

 

[Inderjit S]

Thorondor, you said "How could Ar-Pharazon find immortality with the help of the ring? Gandalf states that the ring doesn't prolong life.", Alatar gave is thos quote "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness...", which refuted your original point, you then responded with waffle which has nothing to do with the point in question. Nice. You also supported my original point. Thanks.

 

[Greenwood]

To return to the original question of the thread, I agree with those who said that if Ar-Pharazon had seized the Ring he would just have been further enslaved to it and its master Sauron. Sauron would have just taken it back. Gandalf, or perhaps one of the mighty among the Eldar might have been able to completely vanquish Sauron using the Ring, and in the process become a new Sauron, but I don't think a mere mortal could have done it. In his letters, Tolkien talks about what would have happened if Gollum hadn't regained the Ring and fallen into the Cracks of Doom. He says the Nazgul would have arrived and tricked Frodo into staying there until Sauron could come himself and take back the Ring.

In the chapter "The Last Debate" in The Return of the King, when asked why Sauron does not fear to attack them if he thinks they have the Ring, Gandalf says because Sauron knows it would take time for even one of the mighty among them to learn to wield the Ring. He argues that their march on the Black Gate will make Sauron think that they do have the Ring and that Sauron only has to capture them to regain the Ring. Mere possession of the Ring does not make its possessor mightier than Sauron immediately. The possessor must have considerable power of his own and must learn to wield the power of the Ring.

Of course, there is the other point that at the time Tolkien wrote the story of Numenor and its fall, he had not yet invented the Ring, so the whole question is moot.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

To return to the original question of the thread, I agree with those who said that if Ar-Pharazon had seized the Ring he would just have been further enslaved to it and its master Sauron. Sauron would have just taken it back.

If you compare to the hypothetical scenario canvassed in "The Last Debate"--whether Sauron would fear his enemies if they had the Ring--at that time he had great forces at his disposal.

In the hypothetical situation I am canvassing, Sauron is in captivity. I think it would be easier to take the ring from him in that case--though I also agree that it would have been possible, provided that he had not in some fashion been destroyed (or banished for a time sufficient for Ar-Pharazon to learn how to master the Ring), for Sauron to get it back.

 

[Thorondor_]

Inderjit, the point in question was your statement: "Perhaps he would have found what he was looking for-immortality". If you and Alatar consider that you can take the quality of life out of the meaning of life, fine by me; in that case both of you are right in your posts. I certainly do doubt that what Ar-Pharazon was looking for was to become a slave of the dark power, enduring "a poor sort of life". Can you please explain what you mean by "Why didn't the Valar help if the Amandil reached them as a emmisary? "
About your affirmation: "My point being was that the Valar did not help the Elves during the War in Beleriand because it was not their role to do so, just as it wouldn’t have been their role to so had the Númenóreans invaded Middle-Earth. " I already said that Valinor would still protect M-E if a new dark power would threaten to rule the whole of it in a very oppresive way, because Valinor was still a part of the world. I think we both stated our arguments, so ... perhaps this discussion is settled.
"Why would they need emissaries? If they loved them as you say then they would have helped anyway. " No, the Valar have been defied, and the noldor left at an unproper hour to attack M-E, and the Valar stated they would help with a condition, the arrival of an emissary. You once made a good argument about the keeping of promises in Tolkien's world.
As I have said, the valar were wrong from the very begining in believing Melkor could/would repent, their promise to release him was a follow-up to that initial mistake.
"And how was the giving of gifts to the Numenoreans a mistake? Should the Elves have withheld their teachings too?" I already stated I was reffering primarily to the gift of power, which power brought pride and the downfall , please re-read my post. And yes, certain teachings should be hidden from a person, if that person can't use them wisely and in the interest of good.
"Men naturally wished for immortality or saw death as a curse" - no, it was Melkor's deeds who induced to humans their fears, made their life miserable and made them wish for more when they already have what the gods envy.

Of course, there is the other point that at the time Tolkien wrote the story of Numenor and its fall, he had not yet invented the Ring, so the whole question is moot.

What do you mean Greenwood? When he wrote the story of Numenor, none of the power rings were invented?

 

[Ingwë]

LotR: Chapter 'The Council of Elrond'

If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.

It is said Wise but I think Ar-Pharazon can overthrow Sauron and the situation would be the same.
We know what does it mean. Dark lord in the Middle earth - wars, death, blood.

 

[Greenwood]

What do you mean Greenwood? When he wrote the story of Numenor, none of the power rings were invented?

Thorondor,

Tolkien wrote The Silmarillion and The Akallabeth (or at least the first versions of them) in the 1920's and 1930's. The Lord of the Rings was not thought of until after the demand for a sequel to The Hobbit which was published in 1937. In The Hobbit, Bilbo's ring is merely a magic ring that conveys invisibility. Once Tolkien accepted the idea of doing a sequel to The Hobbit he decided that the ring should become the key element linking the two stories. He thus changed the entire nature of the ring into a great ruling Ring made by Sauron and he linked everything to his earlier, unpublished writings in that way. Thus, when Tolkien first wrote of Numenor and its downfall, he had not yet conceived of The Ring or the other lesser rings. The rings, quite literally, had not been invented yet.


Ingwe,

In the Council of Elrond chapter it refers to one of The Wise taking the Ring and assailing Sauron with its power, they are clearly speaking of beings such as wizards, Gandalf or Saruman, or one of the great elf lords such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Cirdan, etc. It is not referring to mortals, such as Ar-Pharazon.

 

[Ingwë]

Ingwe,

In the Council of Elrond chapter it refers to one of The Wise taking the Ring and assailing Sauron with its power, they are clearly speaking of beings such as wizards, Gandalf or Saruman, or one of the great elf lords such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Cirdan, etc. It is not referring to mortals, such as Ar-Pharazon.

Greewood,

Let me see. Ar-Pharazon the Golden assailed the Dark land of Mordor and took bach Sauron to Númenor as a hostage. He captured Sauron the Dark lord of Mordor! He was enough powerful to capture Sauron and perhaps to take the One Ring. And he was a Men, though he is Númenorean he is a Men. He will fell inder the shadow of the Ring, he will become a toy of the Ring and he will kill, kill, kill and destroy his enemies. He can't use the Power of the Ring. But he will be the next Dark lord.

 

[Aiglos]

I disagree Ingwe. It is explicit in the texts that Sauron "allowed" himself to be taken to Numenor, where he achieved a great victory against the Valar. He turned the Land of Gift and the Numenoreans rotten, to the very core. His temple to Melkor was even built over the ruins of the Hyarmentir, the airs of Varda, the highest point on Numenor.It was perfectly within his design to make this happen. By appearing once again as Atanatar, a good and wise Maia or Eldarin Elf, he fooled the Numenoreans in exactly the same way as he'd tricked Celebrimbor when the rings were forged.

As for what would happen to "The Golden" if he seized the One Ring. Look no further than Angmar and the eight other "mortal men" who accepted Rings Of Power. How much worse would the effect of the One Ring have been....!

Wraiths. No one but the Wise could have wielded the Ring without it wasting them away, but even then, the bearer would be "turned to the Dark Side" (oops, sorry about that, what forum was I in again!)

 

[Ingwë]

As for what would happen to "The Golden" if he seized the One Ring. Look no further than Angmar and the eight other "mortal men" who accepted Rings Of Power. How much worse would the effect of the One Ring have been....!

Aiglos, The Ringwraiths are servants of the One Ring, of Sauron. They are under the control of the Sauron's Ring. Their rings are not so powerful. The situation of the One Ring is different.

 

[Thorondor_]

"The rings, quite literally, had not been invented yet." So, what was the fate of Sauron in the non-ring version?
"he achieved a great victory against the Valar" - that is is one way of putting it. I would look at the fact that the power given to the Numenoreans by Eonwe, as a reward, was the very fact that made it possible for the rotting of the Numenoreans to be instilled. It was too much for them to wield with wisdom an in the interest of good; and very likely, there is a treshold of power that corrupts anyone. the primarily example is Melkor, he had the greatest power of all the creatons of Eru - he couldn't handle it with wisdom an in the interest of good, he fell prey to that power. So I don't think we could throw the stone at anyone for fallling prey to too much power.
The hearts of the numenoreans were already on the bad side when they began oppressing cities in M-E. Sauron just played with them (after all, he outplayed even the purest creatures in M-E, as you well pointed).

 

[Greenwood]

Ingwe,

Aiglos is exactly correct. The text is quite clear. Ar-Pharazon did not defeat Sauron. Sauron surrendered and allowed himself to be taken back to Numenor where he quickly took control of Ar-Pharazon's will. Ar-Pharazon was not one of the Wise. There is no reason to think any mortal could have mastered the One Ring. Besides, as I have pointed out, when Tolkien wrote that part of his history he hadn't yet thought of the rings, so to argue much about the effect of the One Ring on Ar-Pharazon is really a moot point.

So, what was the fate of Sauron in the non-ring version?

That should be "pre-Ring" version. At that time, Tolkien was writing his own version of the Atlantis legend. Rings of any kind do not come into it. I don't know that he elaborated the story beyond the destruction of Numenor.

 

[Ingwë]

Ingwe,

Aiglos is exactly correct. The text is quite clear. Ar-Pharazon did not defeat Sauron. Sauron surrendered and allowed himself to be taken back to Numenor where he quickly took control of Ar-Pharazon's will. Ar-Pharazon was not one of the Wise. There is no reason to think any mortal could have mastered the One Ring. Besides, as I have pointed out, when Tolkien wrote that part of his history he hadn't yet thougBut he maht of the rings, so to argue much about the effect of the One Ring on Ar-Pharazon is really a moot point.

Greenwood,

He/She is correct but the situation with the One ring is different. No one can control the Ring because it was made by Sauron himself. But someone can overthow Sauron. Sauron can be destroyed though he is a Maia. No mortal, no elf can rule the One Ring but they can use it! But the Ring will not 'listen' his owner bacause that owner will not be his master. The Ring has only one master - Sauron. But if someone defeat Sauron he will be the Dark lord. Not Dark lord because Sauron will be alive while the Ring is still undestroyed. The one who would overthrow Sauron will be a toy in the hands of Sauron - The One Ring. He can use it but he cannot command it.