What would happen if 🧙Gandalf took on the 💀Nazgul with Frodo?

Entmoot · May 17, 2005

"You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

Gandalf is addressing the Balrog as the Flame of Udun. Balrogs are Maiar of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, they dwelt in Utumno, the first fortress of Melkor. Udun is the Sindarin name of Utumno.

"Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."

The secret fire, or Flame Imperishable, represents the principle of existence and creation held by Eru. Gandalf's words identify him as a servant of the power of Ilúvatar.

"'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass."

Anor is the Sun, and so literally the 'flame of Anor' would be the light of the Sun. Since Gandalf claims to wield the light of the sun my opinion is that Gandalf is referring to the ring of fire. It's likely Celebrimbor used the light of the sun/trees in his making of the ring as his grandfather Feanor used the light of the trees in his making of the Silmarils.

Gandalf is indeed contrasting the dark fire of the balrog to the good fire of the secret flame and the light of the trees. These are specific things and not just metaphor.

Thorondor_ · May 18, 2005

Hm, is there anywhere stated that the power of the fire ring derives from the sun? And if so, where does the power of the other rings derive from?

Entmoot · May 18, 2005

It's my opinion that the Ring of Fire is what Gandalf is referring to when he claims to wield the flame of anor (the sun). It's also my theory that Celbrimbor used the light of the sun in making the ring of fire. He had to use something after all. And there is president in the making of the silmarils. Feanor used the light of the trees (the same as in the sun) in there making.

Thorondor_ · May 18, 2005

In my opinion, it was the science and the might of Sauron which were the most important element in the forging of the elven rings too. And I doubt that Sauron at any time had any kind of clame to the power of the Sun. I believe that the power of the sun, moon and stars was completely controlled by the Valar, and that they wouldn't let any possibility for someone in the Middle-Earth to access this power. So Sauron, when participating in any manner at the forging of the rings, was surely cut off from the power of the Sun. Also, when the sun appeared, Melkor & co were afraid of it, esspecially because it was designed to counter their evil actions.

Hehe, I kinda had a revelation. The elves, together with Sauron, controlled the four elements: fire, water, air and earth (the one ring was forged with the power of Sauron combined with the power of a volcano).

Entmoot · May 18, 2005

Sauron greatly desired to "persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power." He taught them secret lore, and with this knowledge their craftsmen (a guild called the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths) created the Rings of Power which included the Seven and the Nine. But Sauron had a part in the creation of these rings and he guided the Elves in their making. However, the Three Elven Rings were conceived and made by the Elven-smith, Celebrimbor, alone, and Sauron never touched the Three.

Sauron gave the Gwaith-i-Mirdain knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have had but the three were conceived and made by Celebrimbor alone. They were clean and free of any corrupting influence in their making.

Morgoth spread his essence throughout the earth. It was in every element but mostly in gold. It's no coincidence Sauron used the fires of the earth to forge his ring and gold as the material.

In contrast Celebrimbor's rings were of fire, water and air and, I would assume, of sources other than materials corrupted by Morgoth. Fire from the sun, water because it still contains the song, and the air since it's Manwe's domain. Collecting light from the sun isn't that far fetched.

Ingwë · May 19, 2005

Gandalf the Grey (the White) is a Maia and the Nazguls are Men (Black Numenoreans and other divisions). It seems that Gandalf would win but the Nazguls have nine Rings of Power and Gandalf has only one - his elven Ring. For Celebrimbor the Three Rings are very important. Gandalf is alone and the Nazguls are nine.

The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

I suppose Gandalf can't endure their power though he is Istar; for the Nazguls have the evil power of Sauron in their Rings and they are servants of him.

Thorondor_ · May 19, 2005

Morgoth spread his essence throughout the earth. It was in every element but mostly in gold.

Can you give a refference to Morgoth corrupting every element? Because, it if it so, the elves, istari, humans and any other creaturs would become corrupted also, simply by eating, breathing, drinking, or lying on the ground for that matter, even if there is no evil spirit around.
I agree with you that there is a posibility of creating a ring from the light of the sun. However, I believe that such a creation is allowed on Middle-Earth by the Valar, because it could fall into the wrong hands TOO easily. And influencing the sun is no small deed, that's why I believe the Valar kept the power of the sun only to themselves, to prevent it from ever getting corrupt, or becoming an instrument of corruption.
Celebrimbor must have been an alchemist, able to transform "led" into "gold" through his power. In my opinion, it's not necessarily important the material from which the ring was forged, but the power transferred into it.

Entmoot · May 19, 2005

I couldn't find source quotes right away but here are a few listings in Tolkein wikis. Google 'Arda Marred' and you'll get many results that back this up.

Melkor's powers were originally immense, at the very least equivalent to those of his brother Manwë's, and possibly greater. He shared a part of the power of all other Valar, but unlike them used this for his own gain. However, as Morgoth he dispersed his power over all of Middle-earth, tainting the very fabric of Arda itself with his will, and thereby lost most of his personal power. (This was later emulated in small by his servant Sauron, by creating the One Ring) When at the end of the First Age Morgoth was dragged out of Angband in chains, he could not even resist the army of Valinor.
http://www.answers.com/topic/morgoth

Arda Marred is the name given to the world as it is: the world after the wars of the Valar and Melkor, and the dispersing of Melkor's fëa in the entire world. It is this world from which are formed the hröa of the Children of Ilúvatar, and therefore it is at times a cruel and evil world with plagues, extreme colds, heat, and other concepts which do not exist in Arda Unmarred. Arda Marred also broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda Marred Elves slowly fade, until at last they are naught but wraiths. Only in Valinor was this fading delayed, which is one reason all Elves had no choice but to go to Valinor in the end. One of the special abilities of the Rings of Power was that they could delay time, and as such were used by Elrond and Galadriel to preserve their realms. After the loss of the One Ring the Elves had no choice left and therefore in the Fourth Age the last Eldar left for Valinor.
http://www.explore-reading.com/literature/A/Arda.html#Arda%20Marred

Thorondor_ · May 19, 2005

The quote says it all about the marring of the elements. But, the rings have in themselves the power of counterring this corruption, according to the quote you gave; I would say the material from which these rings were forged was cleansed from the marring of Melkor, and that this cleansing is perpetuated by the rings in their surroundings. Feanor was the Spirit of Fire, and fire is believed to be the ultimate alchemist, and Feanor also lived in Valinor; Celebrimbor, as his descendant, could have inherited this "cleansing" fire. This is one theory for the forging of the rings.
Another one is based on an observation in a parallel thread: both Sauron and Gandalf kept posession of their rings after they once died. Is it possible that the rings signify a power manifested in someone, a quality? And the rings, in their material form, just bare testimony to this unique power/quality? And that giving away a ring is first and foremost an initiation in this power/quality? When a spiritual master gives a supreme initiation, his power is literally transferred into the disciple.
This could explain the continuing posession of the rings, even after the death of their posesor.

Ingwë · May 20, 2005

The Rings of Power are made of mithril and other metals, I suppose. But not all the elenents are infected by Melkor. Maybe the Rings forged with Saurons help are infected. Those Rings are given to the Men and to the Dwarves. So Gandalf's Ring is clean and I suppose the other Elven Rings are.

Thorondor_ · May 20, 2005

" the dispersing of Melkor's fëa in the entire world"
I think this proves that all elements are marred, as Entmoot said. If the rings are mere materials endowed with some magic power, then that doesn't explain why the rings stay with their master after their respective deaths (take the examples of Gandalf and Sauron).
This is why I suppose that the rings are first and foremost a qualitative aspect, attached to the fea of a person (and only secondly do they have a material form). And I suppose that "loosing" a ring simply means that that certain quality/power was already out of sync with the fea of that person. It is my belief also that quantitative aspect (or the material aspect) is secondary to the qualitative aspect.

Alatar · May 20, 2005

The ring of fire gives corage.
Nothing else it cannot be used in battle(check the consul of elrond).

Thorondor_ · May 20, 2005

"The ring of fire gives corage. Nothing else"
The elven rings of power also delay time/marring/fading.
"it cannot be used in battle(check the consul of elrond)"
Can you be more specific?

Inderjit S · May 20, 2005

They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest; that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve things unstained.

Council of Elrond

For this is the ring of fire, and it may rekindle hearts in a world that has gone chill

Appendix

Entmoot · May 20, 2005

The ring of fire gives corage. Nothing else

The text clearly states they were not made as weapons of war. However, the elven rings were the next most powerful in artifacts in all Middle Earth next to the one ring. They could probably do more than provide inspiration.

Entmoot · May 20, 2005

I suppose that the rings are first and foremost a qualitative aspect, attached to the fea of a person

Celebrimbor didn't make them with specific people in mind. And they do change hands. Cirdan gave Gandalf his ring. The one ring changed hands several times.

But this doesn't resolve the problem of how possession is maintained after death. Gandalf was sent back to the same place he died. The text doesn't say if he was reincarnated in the same body but it wouldn't matter. He came back in the same place and was able to collect his ring and sword before going on an eagle ride.

How did Sauron keep hold of his ring in the deluge of Numenor. Good question. This one really doesn't make sense and I suspect it was a Tolkein oversight. It wouldn't the first. When the ring was cut from him he lost it and couldn't find it. It didn't go with him or return when he came back. It tried maybe but it wasn't automatic. Even when it was a mile away on Mount Doom Sauron didn't know it was there.

Alatar · May 21, 2005

I always thought that sauron had the ring taken from him and it was stored in the tresaruy of Numenor so when everyone left to go to war with the gods sauron simpy got his ring back and then wa nearly killed by the wave.

Thorondor_ · May 21, 2005

"they were not made as weapons of war"

Correct, but...Can anyone name a single thing, actually existing or existing only in Tolkien's world, that cannot be used as a weapon?

"Even when it was a mile away on Mount Doom Sauron didn't know it was there"
It really makes you wonder... if even poor Frodo was able to see Glorfindel's subtle body (if I may say so), how couldn't the Nazgul and Sauron "see" the ring? The ring bearers become visible in the subtle world so I would find it normal that, at least for the bad guys, the One ring should be as "visible" as a the sun is to us.

Entmoot · May 21, 2005

There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed forever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.

For Suron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirt arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

It would seem that Sauron did die in the destruction of Numenor. His body at least died. But it also sounds as though when he went as captive to Numenor he wisely left his ring in Barad-dur.

Entmoot · May 21, 2005

The ring bearers become visible in the subtle world so I would find it normal that, at least for the bad guys, the One ring should be as "visible" as a the sun is to us.

I think that only applies when the ring is worn. As soon as Frodo put the ring in the Sammath Naur on Sauron was aware of him. But, it's obviously a proximity thing since when Sam wore it he wasn't noticed. And that was within Mordor.

What would happen if 🧙Gandalf took on the 💀Nazgul with Frodo?

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